Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-17-2011, 11:55 AM   #1
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
Which Battery Switch

Before we get into my next thread about the latest problem with Dr.Perky 6.354, I need to put a big battery switch on my starter battery to help diagnose what is wrong. Looking at Defender, it seems like the only difference in switches (single on/off) is the amperage. My Energizer starter batter from Sam's club doesn't have a CCA number on it than I can see, so should I just buy the highest amperage I can find? (600A) Then, the starter wire is currently (<-- pun intended) older welders wire, do I need to put together a 1/0 AWG wire or will 2 AWG be enough to make the 18" jump from the switch to the battery?

Thanks y'all,
Tom-

P.S. If you want to get into the problem in this thread, we can do that. It's not a stretch to call it an electrical issue. Even though I had plans to put it in the Power Systems section. It's up to y'all.
__________________
Advertisement

Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 05:26 PM   #2
Guru
 
Capn Chuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 899
RE: Which Battery Switch

Tom, The amperage for your battery or CCA have nothing to do with the size of your switch. It is the potential amps your starter can generate. Where are you putting the switch? Not between the battery and starter I hope. Chuck
__________________

Capn Chuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 05:51 PM   #3
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Which Battery Switch

That's exactly where I was going to put it.

The yet unpublished problem I am having with my engine is that when I turn the key to start it, something is keeping the starter motor engaged and spinning. That sends me lunging into the bilge to spin off the wingnut of the starter battery and yanking off all of the leads in a shower of sparks. The plan was to put a switch there to make it easier and safer to test out possible fixes and always have a way to remove the battery from the starter. The genset is currently like that now and I figured that it was something I was needing to do anyway.

Am I wrong? Please explain.
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 06:03 PM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 19
RE: Which Battery Switch

Gonzo have you checked your starter solenoid.It sounds to me like it is staying engaged.
Maxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 06:12 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
awpptdt's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, N.C.
Country: U.S.A.
Vessel Name: Donnchaidh
Vessel Model: Marine Trader 40' sedan
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 167
RE: Which Battery Switch

* I concur, sounds like it's a bad solinoid, you know the round thing on the started that the battery cable is attached to.J.T.Duncan
awpptdt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 06:46 PM   #6
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Which Battery Switch

It's brand new... And the last time it did this with the same starter, I took it back to the same guy that rebuilt it and he tested it as fine. Weird.

Ok then, do I need to lube the thrust shaft?
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 07:06 PM   #7
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,996
RE: Which Battery Switch

Hiya,
** Could be a sticky bendix (Mr. Gonzo, might try cleaning and lightly lubricating the shaft and drive)....Ahhhh, what about your starting switch?* Could THAT be faulty?
RT Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 08:17 PM   #8
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
Which Battery Switch

All stuff I need to check. In fact, I tested the ignition switch last time.It tests as good, but I'm still curious about Chuck's comment about battery switch placement.

Nevertheless, I guess I have to pull the starter YET again. Dang, that gets old.

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Monday 17th of January 2011 09:17:56 PM
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 10:29 PM   #9
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Which Battery Switch

How about just disconnecting the small wire that powers the solenoid. It sounds like the solenoid is staying energized through the start switch circuitry.

If you are determined to put a switch someplace so you can troubleshoot the system, put a small cheap toggle switch on that wire very near the solenoid.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 11:02 PM   #10
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Which Battery Switch

Actually, Rick, that's what we THOUGHT was wrong last time. After replacing the $3 12V relay, it seemed to have fixed the problem. But no... it has resurfaced as the exact same problem. I now have extra relays and it was the first thing I tried this weekend. However, it appears to be a new problem. So, I have to assume that it might actually be the bendix sticking or something.

But that still leaves me needing a battery switch to de-energize the starter if it happens again. It's burning up my new starter and killing the battery. Neither of which are good things. Since I trust Chuck's input, I still want to know why to NOT put a switch between the battery and starter.
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 12:03 AM   #11
Member
 
cyril444's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 14
RE: Which Battery Switch

If you are just going to use the switch as a temp. solution a heavy knife switch would be the best. Not too expensive either.
cyril444 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 01:33 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
Tonic's Avatar
 
City: Seattle, Salmon Bay
Vessel Name: Tonic
Vessel Model: 1987 Cheer Men Marine PT42
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 184
RE: Which Battery Switch

If yanking the power leads off at the starter "cures" it, I don't see that it would be a stuck bendix. Wouldn't that remain engaged and continue making a racket? I would also guess it's a sticking solenoid, but I'm not clear on whether Gonzo actually disconnected the starter switch wiring at the starter as Rick B suggested, or, if he has, if that stops it. He mentions new relays, but that could still leave a problem at the switch/button or maybe an intermittent short in the wiring between the switch and the starter.

Maybe first pull the switch circuit wire at the solenoid and use a mutli-meter between the wire and ground. There should be zero volts between that and ground unless the ignition is on and the starter button is depressed...right? I would then have someone press the starter (ignition on) and see if I have 12-volts, and also if it immediately returns to zero when the starter button is released. If that looked OK, I would then try the same sequence with a load between the wire and ground using something near the same amperage as the solenoid. That should check to see if something in the wiring is somehow shorting under load. 10-amps would require 120 watts. I could see rigging up a couple of 60 watt car headlight bulbs wired in parallel.

If all that is OK, then I would change the solenoid (although I have no idea how to do that).

I'm no engine mechanic so if there's anything dumb in the above, please correct me.
Tonic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 04:25 AM   #13
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,531
RE: Which Battery Switch

Practical Sailor did great tests on rotary switches ,

and there is a HUGE difference between mfg. in terms of safe current carrying ability.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 05:21 AM   #14
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,670
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Which Battery Switch

Gonzo, provided you use one of the rotary switches that is heavy duty enough you can have it in series with the starter motor. I have exactly that set-up and it works faultlessly. The PO did it as a hidden secret safety device I think for when he had it out on an unprotected mooring, as the ignition switch is a sick joke as any type of security protection. A screwdriver will turn it. It therefore gives me a separate way of isolating the starter motor from the starting batt, or selecting house or both if needed to start. I never have had to do that, but I could. The batt chosen by the main helm selector switch, (usually the house batt on there), therefore only activates the starter solenoid. Works for me, and has done for 10 yrs.

-- Edited by Peter B on Tuesday 18th of January 2011 06:23:40 AM
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 05:29 AM   #15
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Which Battery Switch

If your bendix is sticking it is not an electrical problem. If you want to put a switch between the battery and the starter and open it during one of these episodes, select one that you don't mind throwing away after one use because if the starter is remaining energized the switch will probably be destroyed.

Any switch you can afford to buy is designed to work offload, not while passing a heavy DC current.

There aren't that many trees in this forest.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 05:55 AM   #16
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Which Battery Switch

Could it be an underpowered solenoid? Possibly a cheap one used by the guy who rebuilt the starter. Meaning, if it does not retract when the starter is engaged because of the pressure of the meshing gears, but does once voltage is disconnected when pressure is relieved. I know it's far fetched. Just thinking out loud.

Tom-
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 09:09 AM   #17
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Which Battery Switch

It doesn't work that way.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 11:52 AM   #18
Guru
 
Capn Chuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 899
RE: Which Battery Switch

As Rick said, there is a good chance the switch would be destroyed. Chuck
Capn Chuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 04:10 PM   #19
Guru
 
Phil Fill's Avatar
 
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
Which Battery Switch

To answer your original question.* Beware this is not my strong area.* *

*
We have a selector switch for the 8 D start batteries which is rate at 500 amps and the terminal are for wire.* #4 wire is 13/32 and #2 is 15/32.* *We had an insurance audit which required 400 amps fuse be installed so the selector switch and wire are protected.* It takes a good battery to turn over a diesel engine, so clean the cable connections including the common negative bolt where the negative cables are bolted together which is usually down in the bilge close to the engines, and tighten all connections with pliers/wrench not just hand tight.* At most auto stores you can buy a load tester to see how much of a load your batteries are good for. ******


I installed a starter button in the engine room so I can see/hear/smell what is going on when starting the engines.* If the Engines to not turning over in 1 to 2 seconds and the engine does not start in 5 seconds then something is wrong.* I had the starter on the 671 rebuilt and it came back with an external solenoid in addition to the one built into the starter not sure why but it works.


Anyway you can protect the switches with high amp fuses.****If all else fails call a diesel mechanic which you will need at some time in the future.*In the long run it might be cheaper.***********


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Tuesday 18th of January 2011 05:13:30 PM

-- Edited by Phil Fill on Wednesday 19th of January 2011 10:13:46 AM
Phil Fill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 04:16 PM   #20
JD
Guru
 
JD's Avatar
 
City: New Bern NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stella Di Mare
Vessel Model: Mainship 34t
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,702
Which Battery Switch

Why not just buy a new starter complete.**I can't see you getting to the wires in any reasonable time to disconnect them with out overloading the starter. *You may have ruined the old one by now. *If it does it then you know it is an electrical problem.* And the electrical problem is the key switch.* That is the only way the solenoid can be energized.

I'm thinking it is sticking or the current through it is causing the current to flow even after you let go of it.* As Rick has said there aren't many trees.

-- Edited by JD on Tuesday 18th of January 2011 05:18:57 PM
__________________

JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bilge float switch Forkliftt Other Trawler Systems 103 12-14-2012 01:01 AM
Battery Switch Location and Emergencies sbu22 Electrical and Electronics & Navigation 69 01-11-2012 02:47 PM
Galley Switch dvd Electrical and Electronics & Navigation 29 01-02-2012 10:48 AM
House Battery Bank Switch millennium Electrical and Electronics & Navigation 22 09-13-2011 04:11 AM
FW pump pressure switch Keith Other Trawler Systems 9 05-24-2009 06:22 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012