Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-03-2017, 09:02 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
City: chattanooga tn
Country: usa
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 40
battery question

I recently purchased a 45ft Californian. The battery charger was original (1988)-Silicon Diode brand. The batteries were all low on water and I refilled them. The boat was then idle - getting engine work with little draw on the batteries except lights, Within 3 weeks the water levels dropped. Apparently there were three circuits hooked directly to the charger. The charger has been replaced and I am thinking of exchanging the 8Ds for 31 series. I know it will take about 3 31s per 8D. I think there is room for them and I'd rather not deal with the heavy 8Ds. The boat has three 8Ds and no battery dedicated to the generator ( which I would like). I'd like some advice - seems most the boaters I know are getting away form the 8Ds. Thanks
__________________
Advertisement

obenton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2017, 09:15 PM   #2
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 7,488
It's common to have some batteries that are deep cycle and designed to de discharged 30 to 40% and others that are designed only to start the engine or the generator. Generally speaking, deep cycles don't last as long when used as start batteries, and start batteries generally have short lives when significantly discharged. Were all the 8Ds hooked together or are some house batteries and one a start battery?

Ted
__________________

__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2017, 09:50 PM   #3
Veteran Member
 
City: chattanooga tn
Country: usa
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 40
all were hooked together. Not really sure how they are arranged but I envision two starting banks and a house bank. My former boat had two starting batteries, two house and one for each thruster. All were 31 series and I understood the connections. The diesel mechanic agreed to load test everything this week. I'm hoping with a new charger and 24 to 48 hours of charging I will find the batteries functional for now, but I suspect i will need to replace them.
obenton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2017, 11:08 PM   #4
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,675
battery question

I have completely redone the DC system in both of the boat we have owned. The flat-out single best piece of advice you can take is KEEP IT SIMPLE!!

I would also suggest to replace those 8ds with proper flooded deep cycle golf cart batteries. Cheap, light(er) and they provide the most amp hours for the buck. You will likely need to buy or fabricate new boxes, but it will be fun for the whole family.

One big house bank fed by the alternators and the charger and one bank of dual-purpose batteries to start both engines and the generator charged by a Blue Seas ACR. Done! Easy to design, build, maintain, and understand. Moreover, far fewer points of failure.
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 12:27 AM   #5
Guru
 
HopCar's Avatar
 
City: Miami Florida
Vessel Name: Possum
Vessel Model: Ellis 28
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,363
I'm all in favor of avoiding 8D batteries. My back has never been the same since I tried to keep a little 4d from sliding off a hand truck.
__________________
Parks Masterson
HopCar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 12:39 AM   #6
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,524
We are very careful on our battery energy usage.

Our boat has 4 group 31 deep cycle, wet cell batts hooked up in parallel for house bank, and used as twin engine starters. Starboard engine alternator charges house bank. Separate group 27 starter batt for gen set. Isolated 27 starter batt in its own single batt box kept 100% charged... as emergency spare, just in case. House bank deep cells are eight years old and doing OK. When at anchor for days in a row we usually run gen set one hour in morning and one in eve for cooking, charging equipment, cooling down fridge and charging house bank. Gen set batt is solar charged as well as by gen set's alternator. Isolated emergency batt is trickle charged whenever 120 AC is on while gen set runs or boat is plugged into dock. I have a multi meter wired into house bank and in location where I can check house bank condition when desired. I like to keep battery circumstances simple and efficient and inexpensive.
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 08:24 AM   #7
Veteran Member
 
City: chattanooga tn
Country: usa
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 40
battery question

thanks for the input.Have not been on the boat in a while. The original set up was 4 8Ds with one serving as generator starter and house battery, two as engine starters and a second house 8D. The inverter had 3 or 4 trojan batteries. . The 8 Ds looked good on load testing so I elected to keep them. The Trojans were fried- one of the cases was broken and leaking fluid. The set up now is a little overkill ,but I agreed to it. One 8D for each engine.. two for house , two group 31 batteries for the generator and 3 group 31s as inverter batteries. Had we not had the inverter/charger already I might have stuck with just the 8Ds. We do travel a bit and anchor out a lot. I prefer using battery power for the little stuff and not run the generator unless I need heat and air. I will replace the 8Ds as they play out. They are a pain to get in and out. Appreciate the comments.OB
obenton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 08:59 AM   #8
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,385
Quote:
Originally Posted by obenton View Post
....... One 8D for each engine.. two for house , two group 31 batteries for the generator and 3 group 31s as inverter batteries. .
I would think an 8D battery for each engine would be a little much. My engine starts just fine on a group 31 AGM. I think the original battery was smaller than that.

Also, two group 31 batteries or the generator is way overkill. Really, your two engines and the generator could be started with a single group 31 battery as long as you don't try to start all three at once.

As for the house and inverter, there's no need for separate batteries or banks. The inverter is just another house load. This is where I would be using the high capacity batteries.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 10:48 AM   #9
Guru
 
koliver's Avatar
 
City: Saltspring Island
Country: BC, canada
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
I would think an 8D battery for each engine would be a little much. My engine starts just fine on a group 31 AGM. I think the original battery was smaller than that.

Also, two group 31 batteries or the generator is way overkill. Really, your two engines and the generator could be started with a single group 31 battery as long as you don't try to start all three at once.

As for the house and inverter, there's no need for separate batteries or banks. The inverter is just another house load. This is where I would be using the high capacity batteries.


We don't know what your loads are, but if you have a residential fridge, you probably run it thru the inverter when not plugged into shore power. Otherwise, you could reduce your house batteries by about 1/2.
__________________
Keith
koliver is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 12:48 PM   #10
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,675
battery question

Agreed... it sounds very convoluted and far more complex than it should be. Take your time, do a lot of reading on battery systems and how other people approached similar problems. Boats like these should optimally have two systems (with the option of a small dedicated genset start battery). However, you need to design your system to how you will use your boat and not rely on the way the factory or previous owners did it. 8Ds are not deep cycle batteries and are overkill for starting... Group 31s are not deep cycle batteries either. Mixing and matching all of these means none of them get fully charged or pull down the entire bank.

But like I said, do your homework, take your time, and design the best system that works for you.
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 04:26 PM   #11
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: AICW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19,822
Engine manufactures usually will specify what battery to use under what conditions.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 06:24 PM   #12
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 9,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by obenton View Post
thanks for the input.Have not been on the boat in a while. The original set up was 4 8Ds with one serving as generator starter and house battery...
Not a good idea. If the house drains the battery you can`t start the genset, and it`s your back up.
When I got my present boat someone had wired the 12v fridge direct to the genset batt, I couldn`t remove it fast enough and rewire it back into system Halvorsen designed it, via switch panel "Fridge" breaker switch.
__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2017, 09:27 PM   #13
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom.B View Post
Agreed... it sounds very convoluted and far more complex than it should be. Take your time, do a lot of reading on battery systems and how other people approached similar problems. Boats like these should optimally have two systems (with the option of a small dedicated genset start battery). However, you need to design your system to how you will use your boat and not rely on the way the factory or previous owners did it. 8Ds are not deep cycle batteries and are overkill for starting... Group 31s are not deep cycle batteries either. Mixing and matching all of these means none of them get fully charged or pull down the entire bank.

But like I said, do your homework, take your time, and design the best system that works for you.
Tom - You mention... "Group 31s are not deep cycle batteries either." I question that. I have four 31 deep cycle wet cell batts in my house bank that I run down to 60 or 50 percent and recharge to 100%. Same bank is used for engine starters. About 8 yrs old now and still doing OK. Bought them at Batteries Plus. Manufactured by East Penn Battery and labeled as Deep Cycle.
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 05:11 AM   #14
Senior Member
 
City: G
Country: usa
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 145
Group xx indicates the physical size of the battery. Not the type
stone beach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 09:02 AM   #15
Senior Member
 
Roamer Blue's Avatar
 
City: Toronto ON
Country: Canada
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
I would think an 8D battery for each engine would be a little much. My engine starts just fine on a group 31 AGM. I think the original battery was smaller than that.

Also, two group 31 batteries or the generator is way overkill. Really, your two engines and the generator could be started with a single group 31 battery as long as you don't try to start all three at once.

As for the house and inverter, there's no need for separate batteries or banks. The inverter is just another house load. This is where I would be using the high capacity batteries.
I am somewhat amazed at the amount of battery power that boaters feel they "need" to install for engine starting purposes.

Some of these boats have more battery in them than a big commercial truck that is expected to start in sub zero?

Few are going boating in temperatures below 50 degrees? 60 degrees?

Lots of battery compensating for poor charging and maintenance practices?

Beware the manufacturer, if they have added a fudge factor for the "typical boater abuse"... most of us on here are a fair bit better than those!!

As quoted, why would most of us REQUIRE anything more than a single Group 31 for starting?

$ave ca$h for other boat $tuff?

RB
Roamer Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 09:04 AM   #16
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,524
Tom - You mention... "Group 31s are not deep cycle batteries either." I question that. I have four 31 deep cycle wet cell batts in my house bank that I run down to 60 or 50 percent and recharge to 100%. Same bank is used for engine starters. About 8 yrs old now and still doing OK. Bought them at Batteries Plus. Manufactured by East Penn Battery and labeled as Deep Cycle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stone beach View Post
Group xx indicates the physical size of the battery. Not the type
True - Group "XX" is size of battery. There are XX size wet cell batts that are built to withstand deep cycle use. East Penn is a renowned battery mfg and I believe one of the, if not the, largest. Batteries Plus chain of stores stocks East Penn's batteries, and sells them under differing brand names. What I know from experience is that the four group 31 [labeled "deep cycle"] batts I purchased at Batteries Plus Store in 2009 are still going strong being used in our Tolly's house bank and simultaneously as starter batts for our twin engines.

PS: Since around 2007 I began purchasing all batteries from Battery Plus. Have had great luck with battery quality as well as service. Prices are darn good too!
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 09:20 AM   #17
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: AICW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19,822
You can do the math for starting the engine based on stater amps....

But I would still use the manufacturers recommendation even if they added a fudge factor....does anyone have hard data that they do?

Any more than up sizing cabling or anything else to overcome typical less than perfect situations common on boats.

But often boats get batteries way oversized for engines because they are or supplement the house bank.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 09:52 AM   #18
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
You can do the math for starting the engine based on stater amps....

But I would still use the manufacturers recommendation even if they added a fudge factor....does anyone have hard data that they do?

Any more than up sizing cabling or anything else to overcome typical less than perfect situations common on boats.

But often boats get batteries way oversized for engines because they are or supplement the house bank.
Having our four group 31 wet cell deep cycle batts hooked in parallel and used for house bank as well as engine starters I've experienced no problem for nearing a decade of use that way. I like to keep things on the side of KISS... with backups to go to if necessary.
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 12:52 PM   #19
Veteran Member
 
Tolly Roger's Avatar
 
City: Tsawwassen/Point Roberts
Country: Canada/USA
Vessel Name: Tolly Roger
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34 SC
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 86
I totally agree with doing away with the 8D's
I re-worked our DC system a couple of years ago and am really happy with the results.
I added the project to our blog:
https://tollyroger.com/2015/01/22/ba...2v-dc-upgrade/
__________________
Tolly Roger
1983 Tollycraft 34SC
www.tollyroger.com
Tolly Roger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2017, 12:56 PM   #20
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: AICW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
Having our four group 31 wet cell deep cycle batts hooked in parallel and used for house bank as well as engine starters I've experienced no problem for nearing a decade of use that way. I like to keep things on the side of KISS... with backups to go to if necessary.
One can argue having that setup isn't KISS....and my point wasn't about total boat 12v setup...it was sizing a START battery....and that just saying that most boaters have batteries too large might be accurate...but a person still should outfit their own boat correctly.
__________________

psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×