Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-09-2018, 06:12 PM   #1
Member
 
City: Kingston Ontario
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Cartouche
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 13
Battery Configuration Help

Looking for some advice on how to wire batteries in a new configuration, that I am planning on installing.

We have a single engine Yanmar 370hp in a Mainship 390 with the current configuration

1 (2) way Battery switch Isolator (1,2 or both)

1 50 amp 2 bank Battery charger

1 8Kw Generator with it's own Grp 27 battery with on off switch isolator

2 Grp 31 Deep cycle starting batteries wired in series (Connected to Battery 1 on the Battery/Isolator switch)

1 8D House battery (also runs the bow thruster) (Connected to Battery 2 on the Battery/Isolator switch)

I would like to go to the following, but not sure how connect

2 Grp 31 Deep Cycle starting batteries wired in series and also have it run the Bow thruster (Only change is move the thruster to theses batteries) Connect to Battery 1 on the Battery/Isolator switch

Add 4 Trojan T 145 6 Volt batteries for the house.

My thought process is
I need to have 2 groups of 2 of the 6 volt wired in Parallel to give me 12 Volts,
and then do I wire these 2 banks in series, to give me 1 Bank,
or am I way off base,
hopefully I am making sense.
I want to basically pull out the 8D and replace with (4) 6volt, (Reason we do a lot of anchoring and would like to increase my battery capacity, before having to run the generator) Many thanks for any help
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Joanne & Edward Billing
M/V Cartouche Mainship 390
Agent Kingston Yacht Sales
Cartouche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2018, 06:21 PM   #2
Guru
 
tiltrider1's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Country: USA
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 843
You have your parallel and series reversed. You parallel 12v group 31’s and series your 6v Trojans.

Parallel is connecting the positive to positive post and series is connecting a positive to the negative of another battery
__________________

tiltrider1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2018, 06:30 PM   #3
Guru
 
tiltrider1's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Country: USA
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 843
Your thrusters will work best connected to starting batteries. Batteries are either designed to throw off a lot of amps quickly (start battery) or they are designed to last a long time feeding a more moderate amp demand (deep cycle). A deep cycle starting battery would be an oxymoron or truly the worst of two demands.
tiltrider1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2018, 06:35 PM   #4
Guru
 
tiltrider1's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Country: USA
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 843
There has been a lot of discussion on how to achive optimum battery bank set ups. If you haven’t done a search, I would highly recommend it. You will be surprised by all the discussion and combinations for various reasons.

What you haven’t mentioned is the alternator.
tiltrider1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2018, 06:44 PM   #5
Guru
 
tiltrider1's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Country: USA
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 843
In short, you connect the positive of a 6v battery to the negative of a different 6 v battery and now you have a 12v group. You then connect the un used positive post of each group to the other, same with the negative and you now have a 12v bank. There is a lot more to consider, this is just a very short answer.
tiltrider1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2018, 07:42 PM   #6
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,648
I'd very strongly recommend, no, urge, you to get a copy of Calder's "Boat Owner's mechanical and electrical manual" and/or "The 12 volt Bible for Boats".

Invaluable for this and many other projects.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2018, 09:19 PM   #7
Guru
 
tiltrider1's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Country: USA
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
I'd very strongly recommend, no, urge, you to get a copy of Calder's "Boat Owner's mechanical and electrical manual" and/or "The 12 volt Bible for Boats".

Invaluable for this and many other projects.
This is probably the best advice that can be given on this thread.
tiltrider1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2018, 10:15 PM   #8
Veteran Member
 
SteveandZoila's Avatar
 
City: Nashville TN
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Miss Rita
Vessel Model: 1978 Gulfstar 44MC
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 78
living on 12 volts

I agree on Calders book, also add Living on 12 volts with ample power by David Smead.

I am installing as of today 5 8d AGMs as one main bank for everything. Really wanted to put in LiFePo3 Batteries, next time. I just installed 4-370watt solar, haven't connected controllers, Big alternater on hold due to bracket problems. But I think one bank of same batteries and age will be much easier to manage. 1250ah is a good start. My boats windlass and winch were wired to the house, just got rid of genset batt.and added a 5th batt. Wish I could get the 210 amp alternater in! Leaving for Abaccos Dec 1.
SteveandZoila is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2018, 10:55 PM   #9
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 7,190
Cartouche, I think your idea is fine, other than mixing up series vs parrallel.

One thing I would suggest, is look to see how your alternator output is fed to the batteries. Also think about about your charging setup in general.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2018, 06:48 AM   #10
Scraping Paint
 
City: CT
Country: US
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltrider1 View Post
Your thrusters will work best connected to starting batteries. Batteries are either designed to throw off a lot of amps quickly (start battery) or they are designed to last a long time feeding a more moderate amp demand (deep cycle). A deep cycle starting battery would be an oxymoron or truly the worst of two demands.
Untrue, but not arguing the point here.
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2018, 07:10 AM   #11
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,050
"(Reason we do a lot of anchoring and would like to increase my battery capacity, before having to run the generator)"

Upgrading the house side of the battery bank is fine , but can be expensive.

Far easier to examine what is using juice , on the hook, and make changes in consumption.

What is running down the house bank while anchored?
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2018, 07:55 AM   #12
TF Site Team
 
Bacchus's Avatar
 
City: Seneca Lake NY
Country: US
Vessel Name: Bacchus
Vessel Model: MS 34 HT Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,087
Cartouche
Mainship used diode isolators in some years / models for both alternator and shore charger connection to multi banks.
Worth checking yours to understand what exists. There are many better alternatives.
I made some changes to my MS charging systems ans can provide a link to more info if desired.
I think you heading in the right direction but agree Calder and other threads here on TF worth investigating.
You might also engage a pro to design a system based on your usage even if you plan to do the mods.
__________________
Don
2008 MS 34 HT Trawler
"Bacchus"
Bacchus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2018, 08:27 AM   #13
Member
 
City: Kingston Ontario
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Cartouche
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 13
Many thanks to all I will get the Nigel Calder book and will let hopefully ive me the insight I need, thanks also to Bacchus for the heads up re Mainship.
__________________
Joanne & Edward Billing
M/V Cartouche Mainship 390
Agent Kingston Yacht Sales
Cartouche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2018, 08:55 AM   #14
Guru
 
TDunn's Avatar
 
City: Maine Coast
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Tortuga
Vessel Model: Nunes Brothers Raised Deck Cruiser
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 771
What I would do is as follows.


1. Starting batteries - wire the two Grp 31 start batteries in parallel (positive to positive and negative to negative).


2. Wire the 4 golf cart batteries as follows:
Pair-1 - wire in series Positive on batt 1 to negative on batt 2
Pair-2 - wire in series Positive on batt 1 to negative on batt 2
Wire the two pairs in parallel - Positive on batt-2 in in pair-1 to positive on batt-2 in pair-2 and negative on batt-1 in pair-1 to negative on batt-1 in pair-2.


3. Wire the output from the alternator DIRECTLY (no switch) to the positive on the start batteries. Connect negative on the start batteries to the engine block.


4. Connect positive on the start batteries to positive on the house bank via an automatic combiner relay (ACR). Choose the ACR based on the alternator rating (i.e., ACR should be rated for more amps than the alternator).


5. Connect negative on the house bank to the engine block.


This setup will give you two separate battery banks when the engine is off, but the combiner will connect them for charging when the engine is running. The direct connection from the alternator to the start bank means you do not have to remember to turn a switch on before starting the engine. The ACR will connect the two battery banks when the engine is running and disconnect them when the engine is off. So you never have to flip a switch to charge the house bank from the alternator.


Don't forget to fuse the positive side of the connection to the start bank close to the batteries.
TDunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 10:35 AM   #15
Member
 
City: Kingston Ontario
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Cartouche
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 13
Many thanks TDunn exactly what I was looking for
__________________
Joanne & Edward Billing
M/V Cartouche Mainship 390
Agent Kingston Yacht Sales
Cartouche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 11:12 AM   #16
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDunn View Post
What I would do is as follows.


1. Starting batteries - wire the two Grp 31 start batteries in parallel (positive to positive and negative to negative).


2. Wire the 4 golf cart batteries as follows:
Pair-1 - wire in series Positive on batt 1 to negative on batt 2
Pair-2 - wire in series Positive on batt 1 to negative on batt 2
Wire the two pairs in parallel - Positive on batt-2 in in pair-1 to positive on batt-2 in pair-2 and negative on batt-1 in pair-1 to negative on batt-1 in pair-2.


3. Wire the output from the alternator DIRECTLY (no switch) to the positive on the start batteries. Connect negative on the start batteries to the engine block.


4. Connect positive on the start batteries to positive on the house bank via an automatic combiner relay (ACR). Choose the ACR based on the alternator rating (i.e., ACR should be rated for more amps than the alternator).


5. Connect negative on the house bank to the engine block.


This setup will give you two separate battery banks when the engine is off, but the combiner will connect them for charging when the engine is running. The direct connection from the alternator to the start bank means you do not have to remember to turn a switch on before starting the engine. The ACR will connect the two battery banks when the engine is running and disconnect them when the engine is off. So you never have to flip a switch to charge the house bank from the alternator.


Don't forget to fuse the positive side of the connection to the start bank close to the batteries.
Very good advice but I'd recommend one change...

Send the alternator charge directly to the house bank since its charging needs will be greater than the start battery. Use the ACR connection to share this charge with the start battery after the house has exceeded 13V.

The start battery bank of 2 G31s will be more than enough for your start needs and should be ample for your bow thruster. I start both of my Perkins engines from one G31 start battery without issue but I don't have a bow thruster. (My windlass is connected to my start battery.)

Any battery labeled as a combo deep cycle-start battery is probably neither a very good start battery nor a very good deep cycle battery. It's best to buy batteries that are specifically designed, marketed and sold for the sole intended purpose, start or deep cycle. But working with what you have is often the most economical until you need to replace the batts, then a better battery can be purchased. Just food for thought for the next time you face purchasing batteries.
FlyWright is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 11:20 AM   #17
Scraping Paint
 
City: CT
Country: US
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWright View Post
Any battery labeled as a combo deep cycle-start battery is probably neither a very good start battery nor a very good deep cycle battery. It's best to buy batteries that are specifically designed, marketed and sold for the sole intended purpose, start or deep cycle.
True for 99.99% of mass market / automotive marketing channels.

Odyssey AGM is a major exception, and Northstar and Lifeline, all share advanced TPPL technology that gives you the best of both worlds.

At a price of course.

A large enough even FLA deep cycling bank can handle high discharge rates just fine too, much better value than AGM, especially in $/AH/year.
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 11:29 AM   #18
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,485
My boat came equipped with a lead acid 8D deep cycle for starting. Worked fine for many years before I converted. I'm not saying it's not possible as it clearly is...only that best practices normally recommend function-specific batteries for normal use.
FlyWright is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 11:36 AM   #19
Scraping Paint
 
City: CT
Country: US
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 963
Yes but for the use cases that are both high-current **and** require deep cycling, a Starter style batt will not have good longevity.
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2018, 11:47 AM   #20
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Yes but for the use cases that are both high-current **and** require deep cycling, a Starter style batt will not have good longevity.
I think you just like to argue. No one here is advocating using a start battery for deep cycle use.

Please tell us, john21ct, what is your experience? Have you ever crimped a connector? Do you have a boat? Have you installed marine electrical systems? Do you have formal training in electrical systems?

Some folks pass along electrical advice in online forums without any experience or true understanding. You post a lot about electrics but often it's the good work of others that has been discombobulated. Please tell us your experience and training so we can know that your words can be trusted.
__________________

FlyWright is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012