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Old 02-21-2016, 07:00 AM   #21
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"I've got big flooded batteries powering a house and add about 10 gal of distilled water every 3 months or so."

Sounds Like the charge voltage is too high , or charging too long.

Measure all the voltages to see whats happening.

Hydro Caps will save most of the watering if you cant correct the hassle.

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Hydrocap - Reduce Battery Maintenance & Save Money! By reducing explosive hydrogen gas and virtually eliminating corrosion, HYDROCAPS create a safer ...
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Old 02-21-2016, 09:26 AM   #22
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Why not just go all out and replace the lead batteries with lithium. Less space, less weight, faster charging, can be drained by 100% and , oh yeah, MORE money.
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Old 02-21-2016, 10:43 AM   #23
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I'd take a serious look into Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (Note: These batteries are not for the self-proclaimed "cheap SOB's").

Here are a couple of links to get you started:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu...sphate_battery

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Old 02-22-2016, 11:30 PM   #24
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Li batteries catch on fire all the time!!!!
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Old 02-23-2016, 12:41 AM   #25
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Li batteries catch on fire all the time!!!!
That, sir, is a gross exaggeration of the facts!! They only catch fire SOME of the time.

OK...I might even give you MOST of the time, but ALL of the time is going just a bit too far.
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Old 02-23-2016, 01:01 AM   #26
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That, sir, is a gross exaggeration of the facts!! They only catch fire SOME of the time.

OK...I might even give you MOST of the time, but ALL of the time is going just a bit too far.
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Old 02-23-2016, 02:21 AM   #27
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I replaced flooded lead-acid batteries that were quite new during my refit. The main reason was that the Odyssey AGM's have a much higher charge-acceptance rate.

I have 2 x 200 A alternators on the engines, and needed that charge-acceptance rate benefit. Another plus is that the Odyssey's can have 80% DoD, so much more of your installed AH is usable.

Side benefits were not having to do water top ups, no mess mess or off-gassing.

I might go to LiFePO4 once the price comes down. They don't catch fire, like some of the other lithium chemistry ones are infamous for. But they don't have as good as power-density as some of the others either. That's no big deal for cruiser.
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Old 02-23-2016, 07:30 AM   #28
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"I have 2 x 200 A alternators on the engines, and needed that charge-acceptance rate benefit. Another plus is that the Odyssey's can have 80% DoD, so much more of your installed AH is usable."

This is the key!

If short charge times are THE requirement AGM , is the way to go.
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Old 02-23-2016, 08:06 AM   #29
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It wasn't in a boat but in my motorhome. I installed 1000 amp hours (800 usable) of LiFePO4, lithium iron phosphate, batteries. Very pleased with them over the 2 years then pulled them out when I sold the motorhome and sold them to a friend who is still very pleased after 2 years usage.
These will not catch fire, in fact 1 cell came in with a cracked leak and a small leak. Being the inquisitive person that I am before I sent the cell back to the dealer I collected a few ounces. I poured some on cement outside and used a small butane torch to try and ignite it. It just evaporated. I also poured some into water and it just mixed in with the water. There is a video from Australia that shows someone rigging up a cell and causing a direct short. It smoked and the case melted down but never caught fire. I would not be concerned using these in a boat.
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Old 02-23-2016, 08:54 AM   #30
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Isn't there several different chemical formulations of Lithium batteries? One is like working with nitro but some of the others are proven yet limited tech?
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:30 AM   #31
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Seems that some TF members need a bit more education regarding LiFeP04 (lithium iron phosphate) batteries. For their convenience I have provided a link, AGAIN, that will head them in the right direction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu...sphate_battery
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Old 02-23-2016, 10:00 AM   #32
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Heck...I was once told in the service that Admirals don't get "trained" or "educated"...they get "briefed".

Guess the assumption was that they were too smart to be educated by their lesser officers.

So....how about a great briefing for the admirals?
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Old 02-23-2016, 11:48 AM   #33
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I think Baker was referring to Lithium Ion batteries, like those found in the hoverboards. A whole different beast than the LiFePO4.
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Old 02-23-2016, 12:06 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by FlyWright View Post
I think Baker was referring to Lithium Ion batteries, like those found in the hoverboards. A whole different beast than the LiFePO4.
...or the B787...

Sorry....my bad!
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Old 02-23-2016, 02:03 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"I've got big flooded batteries powering a house and add about 10 gal of distilled water every 3 months or so."

Sounds Like the charge voltage is too high , or charging too long.

Measure all the voltages to see whats happening.

Hydro Caps will save most of the watering if you cant correct the hassle.

Hyrdocap | Home

www.hydrocapcorp.com/


Hydrocap - Reduce Battery Maintenance & Save Money! By reducing explosive hydrogen gas and virtually eliminating corrosion, HYDROCAPS create a safer ...
You are right on both counts (high charge voltage and long charge time), but it's required. It turns out the Surrette super-duper mega-moster batteries really aren't a good match for a solar system. They are more suited to large commercial vessels, trains, and other applications where charging is via a prolonged charge source. Solar, by it's very nature, only lasts for a fixed number of hours per day.

It turns out that the very thick plates in the big Surrettes (series 5000) want a really long absorption charge. 6-8 hrs would be ideal, and that's AFTER they go though their bulk charge phase. Well, around here the sun don't shine that long every day. After extensive back and forth with Surrette, I settled on just under 60V as the bulk/absorb voltage. That's equivalent to 15V on a 12V battery. It's a super hot charge voltage, but the only way to get the SG back up in the available time. And it's not like I'm draining them down very much, or that I'm short on charge power with 3600W of panels. This has been a real source of frustration, and I deeply regret having bought the batteries and feel Surrette really misrepresents them by selling into the solar market. But they are mine now, all $14k of them, so I live with them as best I can.

FWIW, my goal is to have sorted out a LiFePO replacement by the time the Surrettes give up the ghost. They seem very promising, but the charging and control systems still seem immature.

Oh, and the water consumption is WITH Hydrocaps. I put them on years ago.
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:05 PM   #36
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This is a pretty interesting thread on batteries. My trawler came with Gel batteries that are long in the tooth. The house bank seems to be doing fine. It is two 8D batteries. The engine start battery needs to be replaced. It is also a Gel battery but a 4D. I don't see the advantage to going to AGM batteries with the need to change out my charging system.

What I don't see is the advantage to the Gel batteries over wet. My batteries are all in the engine room centered above the keel and easy to maintain and monitor.

The Gel batteries are not that much more money than wet batteries. The Gel house bank of batteries have lasted 16 years on the boat. Which is why I see them needing to be replaced this Spring. The engine start battery is 8 years old and will be replaced this next few days.

Any thoughts?
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:08 PM   #37
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...The Gel batteries are not that much more money than wet batteries. The Gel house bank of batteries have lasted 16 years on the boat. Which is why I see them needing to be replaced this Spring. The engine start battery is 8 years old and will be replaced this next few days.Any thoughts?
Based on that longevity, replace with more of the same.
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:17 PM   #38
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Based on that longevity, replace with more of the same.
No doubt!!!!! I would go with exactly the same batteries if they lasted that long!!! Holy cow! You might have a record!!!
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:30 PM   #39
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No doubt!!!!! I would go with exactly the same batteries if they lasted that long!!! Holy cow! You might have a record!!!
Nothing stamped on the batteries and no label to be found except for the make and size on the side. I am going off the maintenance records of the previous owner. They are meticulous records so I don't have reason to think they are incorrect. But who knows...

Thanks!
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Old 02-23-2016, 06:06 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
You are right on both counts (high charge voltage and long charge time), but it's required. It turns out the Surrette super-duper mega-moster batteries really aren't a good match for a solar system. They are more suited to large commercial vessels, trains, and other applications where charging is via a prolonged charge source. Solar, by it's very nature, only lasts for a fixed number of hours per day.

It turns out that the very thick plates in the big Surrettes (series 5000) want a really long absorption charge. 6-8 hrs would be ideal, and that's AFTER they go though their bulk charge phase. Well, around here the sun don't shine that long every day. After extensive back and forth with Surrette, I settled on just under 60V as the bulk/absorb voltage. That's equivalent to 15V on a 12V battery. It's a super hot charge voltage, but the only way to get the SG back up in the available time. And it's not like I'm draining them down very much, or that I'm short on charge power with 3600W of panels. This has been a real source of frustration, and I deeply regret having bought the batteries and feel Surrette really misrepresents them by selling into the solar market. But they are mine now, all $14k of them, so I live with them as best I can.

FWIW, my goal is to have sorted out a LiFePO replacement by the time the Surrettes give up the ghost. They seem very promising, but the charging and control systems still seem immature.

Oh, and the water consumption is WITH Hydrocaps. I put them on years ago.
Hmm, I really will have to remember to stay clear of Surrette. And I had thought they were good!

Odyssey goes the other direction: ultra thin plate, pure lead. Can be used either as start battery or deep cycle. So far so good with them.
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