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Old 07-14-2017, 04:47 PM   #61
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:12 PM   #62
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Hyperbolic? Not really. But I will not do your research for you. All of those things I mentioned are not trivial and they are all unintended consequences. You need to think a bit about how we progress and how we deal with the byproducts of our activities. Just think about boating. We used to dump our poop in the ocean and lakes. We used to flush our bilges overboard. We regularly used tidal grids where we scraped the barnacles and the bottom paint into the water. We dumped our waste oil on the ground, threw garbage in the sea, etc etc. Those were all unintended consequences of boating that were all dealt with one by one. Not trivial. How much mercury can you scatter about such that its still "trivial?" Perhaps your neighbours can dump their obsolete flourescent bulbs in your yard?

The government complaint is also nonsense when you live with neighbours. First of all, who makes up government? Aliens? Coyotes? Its you and your neighbours. Unless you are an anarchist you really can't expect to live completely free; you can't not stop at stopsigns, can't shoot the neighbour's kids for running on your lawn, can't drive at 100 mph through a school zone? If you really actually believe that you live free I would suggest you are off your meds. All of the consequences of living in a society are made by groups of members of that society and you too have to conform. There are small, call them trivial activities you can do without government guidance, like drink too much, but heaven help you if you also then go boating.

Think about it?
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Old 07-14-2017, 05:21 PM   #63
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Another fun fact, another unintended consequence is that wind farms and solar farms change the local climate as energy that was already in some sort of equilibrium is now being extracted from the climate. Think of a solar panel not as a free source of electricity but as a device for extracting energy from a system that would otherwise use that energy to grow a tree of heat lake water.

None of these great, ecological, groovy, green, modern ideas are "free." If you think they are, you probably just haven't found what the problem is yet.

Do you like eating quinoa? Its trendy and prices have risen and now the indigenous people who grow it can't afford to eat it. That sort of thing.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:56 PM   #64
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Yes, Dave... That it is - and - that it will become. There is soooo much more to the mix then I have provided access to. Just gave the basics, i.e. similar to a high altitude helicopter view.

I envisioned, invented, designed and own rights my solar powered airflow "machine" - so to say. It's scalable for moving massive amounts of air and while so doing creates MW electricity and potable water!

There are others in the mix for CO2 atmospheric separation, turning CO2 into syngas and turning syngas into fungible, drop-in liquid hydrocarbon fuels.
It sounds like I definitely wasn't on the right track. I was thinking of direct conversion of solar energy to splitting Oxygen atoms of a CO2 molecule. It sounds as if you are doing something entirely different. Anyway, it certainly sound intriguing.

I guess it all depends on the amount of extra energy it takes to make the syngas from atmospheric CO2 and then process that into a transportable fuel. If it was cheap enough, then something like the EFOY fuel cell could be a better option.
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Old 07-14-2017, 06:59 PM   #65
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None of these great, ecological, groovy, green, modern ideas are "free." If you think they are, you probably just haven't found what the problem is yet.
That is very true. The key is to try and identify and manage the unintended consequences.

When I was a kid, the answer to our energy needs was a going to be nuclear power. That was a LONG time ago. Here in the US we still haven't come up with a final solution for storing the waste.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:20 PM   #66
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Think of it this way...

Planet Earth is a living breathing entity with billions upon billions of individualized living or non living artifacts/entities aboard; i.e. things developed by chance, evolution or some master plan... as well as quite a few "things" that have now been created by humans.. The mix of all these artifacts is constantly changing in its dimensions as well as regarding all the trillions of types of interactionsssssss.

So... does the Living Planet Earth actually need elephants... well probably no. How about raccoons... ah, likely not. Also there are house cats... Earth could still probably easily keep living without pet cats too. Then we come to the human race... in actuality, Earth could care less if we are here or gone.

That begs this question: What is it that all items mentioned in paragraph above have in common?

Well, they all need the various parameters of life perpetuating/supporting substance that Earth provides them.

Question's answer: Common denominator... they all need Earth. And its current ecosystem and climate conditions to continue as un abated as possible!

Now to get a little closer to the nitty-gritty of human existence-needs, in corolation to what's mentioned two paragraphs above... as a matter of fact as compared to anything on Earth. We humans are the only entity/artifact on earth who can knowledgably in either hap hazard, thoughtless manner or by direct, concerted effort alter Earth's life-giving-sustenance composition. Ain't we special!

To The Point:
1. Anthropogenic actions up to now, toward utilizing/abusing Earth's life-giving-sustenance composition, have been thoughtless and hap hazard,
2. Direct, thoughtful, concerted effort is now required by the human race in order to keep Earth's current life-giving-sustenance composition, which is required for the human race to continue, in-line without a calamity of climate/ecosystem alterations for possible extinction of our race as well as many other living forms.

Does Earth care if we stay or go - I think not! Do we care enough to work hard enough so our race can continue onward, on Earth - God I Hope So!!!

We CAN Do It... if we set our minds To IT!

Happy Life-Sustenance Saving Daze - Art
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:22 PM   #67
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Art, that made me feel all warm, like when you pee when you're swimming. Mmmm.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:57 AM   #68
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Art, that made me feel all warm, like when you pee when you're swimming. Mmmm.
I'm so freaking pleased for you!
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:27 AM   #69
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Art, that made me feel all warm, like when you pee when you're swimming. Mmmm.
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I'm so freaking pleased for you!
Ah...yes...when the pee is silent, as in psea bathing...
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:32 AM   #70
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You see, you see! I spread pleasure wherever I go! Or you do. Or, well, wait,
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Old 07-15-2017, 02:33 AM   #71
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If electricity is so "sweet," when will natural gas be replaced for heating/cooking on land-based homes? Seems much more efficient to use gas directly at the use-point than use it to convert it first into electricity. We're a long way from relying solely on non-carbon energy sources.
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Old 07-15-2017, 02:59 AM   #72
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... What right does the "community" have to "guide my behavior"?........
It has EVERY right. Aren't you glad your neighbor can't listen to his stereo at full volume at 2 in the morning ? He also can't have a Bengal Tiger in his back yard either, or operate a pawn shop and pipe bomb factory out of his garage. A doctor has to have credentials, restaraunts have to be inspected, and houses have to be built to code. There are a lot of ignorant, stupid and selfish people in the world, and the rules of a community protect us from them, and protect them from themselves.

Everyone has different values and priorities. Someone in Kansas probably resents the Federal Gov't spending money on the US Coast Guard. Someone in New Hampshire probably resents all the money spent on Tornado Warning Systems and research. I wish it was easier to own a handgun, but the community has decided that should be difficult. I don't like it, but I understand and accept it because overall, being in the community has benefits.

I'm not a Trekie, but a quote from Spock comes to mind here: "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few"

And as the "tree huggers" putting the needs of some endangered frog over human needs, no one is saying that a frog is more important than a human. But if an alternative can be found that allows the frog species to survive, that is a better option. Whalers used to wonder what was wrong with killing whales, and fisherman are always crying foul when catch and size limits are implemented, but in the end......these things help the planet, and that in turn benefits us all.
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:19 AM   #73
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The whole concept of alternative energy is intriguing, as are the differing technical opinions on how these alternatives are best achieved.

It would be a pity to see this interesting thread delegated to OTDE because of a few politically oriented posts......
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Old 07-15-2017, 08:51 AM   #74
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Yea, that's easy to overlook for some folks. An electric car is useless for long trips so if you buy one, you'll need to either buy or rent a conventionally powered car for trips.

Electric cars have an advantage over boats - They can generate electricity from braking and going downhill. Boats seldom do that.

I have wondered though; Do electric cars have air conditioning? If so, how much does using it reduce the range of the car?

Going back to the original post and the assumption that we will be driving lithium battery powered cars and boats, perhaps we will someday but many of us have learned not to be the first to buy into some new technology. The leading edge is also the bleeding edge.

When I see the mainstream boat manufacturers using lithium batteries, I'll consider them.
I'm working on a few LiIon new build projects now. I've approached this technology cautiously, I did not embrace it like some of my author colleges, especially not for propulsion, and still don't. I can recall, 12 or 15 years ago when hybrid was all the rage, asking boat builders who were going down this path, why are you doing this, it isn't more efficient? The standard response was almost always, "Cruise ships and tug boats use it". That was the logic. All of those builders, there were only a few thankfully, found out the hard way that a yacht is not a cruise ship or tug boat. In very limited applications, hybrid propulsion afloat makes sense, but it's a narrow slice and very few are recreational. In the vast majority of cases it's a net loss when compared to a diesel, with vastly increased expense and complexity added on top of it.

So, Wes, I agree, for propulsion LiIon on boats makes little sense at this point unless you have a very large solar array (and some do, Greenline, with limitations of course, can run on solar alone), as there is no regenerative aspect.

At this stage in its life I believe LiIon has now progressed from bleeding to leading edge technology, at least within the recreational marine field.

Having recently spent three weeks aboard a 75 foot cruising vessel whose house 2000 Ah bank is LiIon, I can say it does offer a number of advantages for this application, with some caveats. After 17 hours at rest, the bank aboard this vessel was at 50%, and that included use of the induction cook top, everything in fact except HVAC. Unlike lead acid batteries, 50% is not the recharge threshold, Li Ion batteries can be depleted to 20%. Recharge time is also blinding when compared to AGM. Lifespan is multiples of lead acid banks, they weigh significantly less and because of their DoD, a smaller bank can essentially do the same work when compared to lead acid.

As I said, there are caveats, they remain very expensive, few professionals understand them or the charging systems, making retrofits, troubleshooting and repair problematic, they rely on a lot of monitoring, automatic controls and technology to remain safe, and safety is a concern as an overheated LiIon battery has a significant chance of leading to a fire. It's also worth noting, there are a number of LiIon chemestries, those used in most marine applications are, unlike cars and the B787, lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO 4).

ABYC is in the midst of writing a standard for LiIon battery installations. I know of at least two builders who have said they will go Li Ion once a standard is available.

IMO, the only way to do this with any degree of safety is by using a complete package from one manufacturer, batteries, chargers, inverters, monitoring etc. And, the installation, once complete should be inspected and approved by the manufacturer (not necessarily a dealer unless he or she is a confirmed expert in these systems, and is capable of scrutinizing the installation for flaws, been there done that).

Bottom line, a boat is not a car, diesel engines remain, with few exceptions, the best, most reliable, safest and most efficient means of propulsion for now. For house batteries, however, the industry continues to edge closer and closer to Li Ion adoption. Right now, the biggest limiting factor is price, if/when that comes down I'm pretty certain we'll see widespread adoption. Unless of course a better battery technology comes along;-)
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Old 07-15-2017, 10:18 AM   #75
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...For house batteries, however, the industry continues to edge closer and closer to Li Ion adoption. Right now, the biggest limiting factor is price, if/when that comes down I'm pretty certain we'll see widespread adoption...
Which is pretty much where I was going in the original post to this meandering thread.

With Musk and several Chinese manufacturers all racing to the starting line in terms of manufacturing capacity, price will surely come down. Then, if ABYC climbs aboard as Steve suggests, manufacturers will begin providing solutions from splashy whiz-bang all the bells and whistles varieties to frugal(ish!) no-nonsense packages.

Good advice to stay with one manufacturer for the whole system
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Old 07-15-2017, 10:47 AM   #76
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If electricity is so "sweet," when will natural gas be replaced for heating/cooking on land-based homes? Seems much more efficient to use gas directly at the use-point than use it to convert it first into electricity. We're a long way from relying solely on non-carbon energy sources.


There is certainly an advantage to cooking with gas. NG is a great source of heat. At home I use it for an on-demand hot water heater as well as two gas fireplaces.

For gas and electric, there is a fair bit of cost tied up in distribution. I'm not sure about the relative costs between the two. Many of us have solar on our boats. The only reason for this is to free us from the issues of distribution. It seems to me that there may come a point when more of us use point source power generation to cut down on the costs of distribution.
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:02 AM   #77
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The City of Vancouver, that pretty hell-hole near me, is banning natural gas after some time (I dont know when, nor care). They have decided that the only source of energy should be electrical. This is the city that closes roads for bicycles, as if you can stock a grocery store with a bicycle...sometimes you can't see the benefits of a project and sometimes there isn't any.
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:14 AM   #78
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It has EVERY right. Aren't you glad your neighbor can't listen to his stereo at full volume at 2 in the morning ? He also can't have a Bengal Tiger in his back yard either, or operate a pawn shop and pipe bomb factory out of his garage. A doctor has to have credentials, restaraunts have to be inspected, and houses have to be built to code. There are a lot of ignorant, stupid and selfish people in the world, and the rules of a community protect us from them, and protect them from themselves.

Everyone has different values and priorities. Someone in Kansas probably resents the Federal Gov't spending money on the US Coast Guard. Someone in New Hampshire probably resents all the money spent on Tornado Warning Systems and research. I wish it was easier to own a handgun, but the community has decided that should be difficult. I don't like it, but I understand and accept it because overall, being in the community has benefits.

I'm not a Trekie, but a quote from Spock comes to mind here: "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few"

And as the "tree huggers" putting the needs of some endangered frog over human needs, no one is saying that a frog is more important than a human. But if an alternative can be found that allows the frog species to survive, that is a better option. Whalers used to wonder what was wrong with killing whales, and fisherman are always crying foul when catch and size limits are implemented, but in the end......these things help the planet, and that in turn benefits us all.
Well put!
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:35 AM   #79
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If electricity is so "sweet," when will natural gas be replaced for heating/cooking on land-based homes? Seems much more efficient to use gas directly at the use-point than use it to convert it first into electricity. We're a long way from relying solely on non-carbon energy sources.
Carbon sources of energy are great ways to power many things. We will never be without use of some carbon filled power sources. The trick we are currently being forced to accomplish [by having relied nearly solely on carbon filed power sources for well over a century] is how to reduce the carbon exhaust results as well as how to create new power sources to replace a large amount of current carbon based products.

This global based project is just another advancement step for humanity to accomplish. And, accomplish it we will!
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:37 AM   #80
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You see, you see! I spread pleasure wherever I go! Or you do. Or, well, wait,
Don't believe everything you post! - LOL
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