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Old 07-14-2017, 11:41 AM   #41
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Sorry djmarchand, renewables are only 15% in the US. Natural gas is big... but only 33%.
That's the snapshot view. But graph it out over the preceding ten years and a few things will pop, particularly renewables. Of course these trends can be reversed by things like significant changes in energy or environmental policies. November's election made predicting the future a bit more difficult.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:46 AM   #42
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So the government is subsidizing the production and operation of electric vehicles. The government itself has no money to do this, it is taking money from taxpayers and giving it to other taxpayers to buy and operate these vehicles. Where does that help anything?

You describe just another example of societies using taxation as a form of social engineering. Most communities use their tax structure to promote some types of behavior and discourage other behavior.

The answer to your question is simple. These types of tax/social policy help the community to guide behavior in ways that they feel is valuable. The larger community feels that is helpful.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:54 AM   #43
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Sorry djmarchand, renewables are only 15% in the US. Natural gas is big... but only 33%.
I think Dave's point was that NEW power generation is coming from natural gas or renewables. Kind of like our marginal tax rate. Not sure if he is entirely correct, but I think he is close. As we add new generation capability most of it is NG or renewables. As we add more new sources of power generation, the percentage of total power production from coal and diesel is decreasing.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:26 PM   #44
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I think we were discussing unintended consequences, like how twisted the market and huge quantities of damaged engines after the ethanol nonsense or the results on groundwater from fracking natural gas. The disposal of huge quantities of used batteries, just as the problems from the disposal of tires; how to dispose of those small flourescent bulbs after governments mandated their use. Bird deaths from windmills and being incinerated in solar farms. What happens to all those solar panels after 20 or 30 years? What happens to the power grid if suddenly everyone wants electric cars?

Claiming your power generation is all ok despite only being currently at 14%, because I presented a "snapshot" is specious.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:47 PM   #45
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With associates, universities and govt. orgs: Corp I founded has been working diligently on the following... for well over a decade.

Solar powered massive airflow that "cleanly" accomplishes the following group of environment-friendly items:

- Generates electricity,
- Creates potable water from ambient air humidity,
- Desalinates ocean water,
- Helps enable others' "Direct Air Capture" [DAC] devices to separate CO2 from atmosphere, and;
- Which therefore enables others' devices with amble amount of 98% pure CO2 to turn that CO2 into fungible, drop-in fuels for gasoline, diesel and jet engines.

This solar powered "Full-Cycle" process for creating atmospherically suspended CO2 based fuels = "Carbon Neutral" fuel supply that will efficiently suffice to run the billion plus liquid hydrocarbon combustion engines throughout the world.

In simplest terms:
1. CO2 gets extracted form atmosphere,
2. CO2 gets turned into "syngas",
3. Syngas gets turned into gasoline, diesel or jet fuel, and;
4 Fuels get burned in combustion engine with CO2 readmitted back into atmosphere

From point #4 go back to point #1... and do it all over again and again; time after time after time!

That is why it is called a "Full-Cycle" "Carbon Neutral" liquid hydrocarbon fuel source. This revolutionary method of a new-source for vehicular and generator and appliance and airplane propellants creates no new CO2. Completely different than all forms of fossil fuels that are "Carbon-Positive" and that must be stopped in use before it is too late to save our ecosystem and climate environments.

Cheers!

Art
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:56 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Xsbank View Post

Claiming your power generation is all ok despite only being currently at 14%, because I presented a "snapshot" is specious.

Yeah, I didn't take David's post to imply that US power generation is "all OK". I certainly don't think it is. I do think that it has been improving in many ways over the years. Of course, if POTUS has his way, we may be building a lot of new coal fired power plants.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:57 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Xsbank View Post
I think we were discussing unintended consequences, like how twisted the market and huge quantities of damaged engines after the ethanol nonsense or the results on groundwater from fracking natural gas. The disposal of huge quantities of used batteries, just as the problems from the disposal of tires; how to dispose of those small flourescent bulbs after governments mandated their use. Bird deaths from windmills and being incinerated in solar farms. What happens to all those solar panels after 20 or 30 years? What happens to the power grid if suddenly everyone wants electric cars?

Claiming your power generation is all ok despite only being currently at 14%, because I presented a "snapshot" is specious.
No disagreement here on unintended consequences. I think Europe and wealthy parts of Asia have a big problem right now. They pushed diesel in personal transport largely for energy conservation/GHG reduction and now find their cities being threatened by NOx emissions from those 'clean' diesels. Change is hard, and this is a tough set of challenges.

What the trend in energy mix and storage tells us that the snapshot doesn't is that the future holds possibility for reducing fossil fuel consumption while continuing to enjoy the benefits and wealth that abundant energy has provided. I wouldn't claim that all is OK now, but based on the trend I'd say that there are clearly opportunities for continued progress.

Maybe I lapsed into analyst speak, but hopefully this clarifies my point.
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Old 07-14-2017, 01:13 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Art View Post
With associates, universities and govt. orgs: Corp I founded has been working diligently on the following... for well over a decade.

Solar powered massive airflow that "cleanly" accomplishes the following group of environment-friendly items:

- Generates electricity,
- Creates potable water from ambient air humidity,
- Desalinates ocean water,
- Helps enable others' "Direct Air Capture" [DAC] devices to separate CO2 from atmosphere, and;
- Which therefore enables others' devices with amble amount of 98% pure CO2 to turn that CO2 into fungible, drop-in fuels for gasoline, diesel and jet engines.

This solar powered "Full-Cycle" process for creating atmospherically suspended CO2 based fuels = "Carbon Neutral" fuel supply that will efficiently suffice to run the billion plus liquid hydrocarbon combustion engines throughout the world.

In simplest terms:
1. CO2 gets extracted form atmosphere,
2. CO2 gets turned into "syngas",
3. Syngas gets turned into gasoline, diesel or jet fuel, and;
4 Fuels get burned in combustion engine with CO2 readmitted back into atmosphere

From point #4 go back to point #1... and do it all over again and again; time after time after time!

That is why it is called a "Full-Cycle" "Carbon Neutral" liquid hydrocarbon fuel source. This revolutionary method of a new-source for vehicular and generator and appliance and airplane propellants creates no new CO2. Completely different than all forms of fossil fuels that are "Carbon-Positive" and that must be stopped in use before it is too late to save our ecosystem and climate environments.

Cheers!

Art
Assuming you're not working on a perpetual motion machine, where does the energy for 1, 2 and 3 come from?
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Old 07-14-2017, 01:18 PM   #49
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I think we were discussing unintended consequences, like how twisted the market and huge quantities of damaged engines after the ethanol nonsense or the results on groundwater from fracking natural gas. The disposal of huge quantities of used batteries, just as the problems from the disposal of tires; how to dispose of those small flourescent bulbs after governments mandated their use. Bird deaths from windmills and being incinerated in solar farms. What happens to all those solar panels after 20 or 30 years? What happens to the power grid if suddenly everyone wants electric cars?

Claiming your power generation is all ok despite only being currently at 14%, because I presented a "snapshot" is specious.
Wow, getting a bit hyperbolic??

1. Ethanol damaged engines? Yes, initially. Mostly fixed now.
2. Disposing of used batteries? Recycle them. Already happening.
3. Disposing of tires? Recycle them. Already happening
4. Small flourescent bulbs? Trivial amount of mercury, moot as those are obsolete now considering LED.
5. Bird deaths from windmills? I have not researched, but what I have read is that the numbers are an order of magnitude less than those killed by house cats.
6. Birds incinerated by concentrated solar farms? That number HAS to be trivial.
7. Old solar panels? Recycle them or into the landfill. Not particularly toxic.
8. What happens to the grid if everyone suddenly gets ecars? Silly, that will not happen suddenly. Gradually perhaps, and the grid can and will adapt with the adoption. In some ways ecars help as charging at night helps flatten the diurnal load fluctuations, which have buggered utilities for ages.

Take a breath....
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:07 PM   #50
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That's because, as far as your lower 48 west is concerned, you have zero rivers which run free to the sea. Not a problem in Canada
I have no idea how you think that relates to what I posted. We will have no new dams because "tree huggers" believe endangered frogs and such are more important than human's needs.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:09 PM   #51
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I have no idea how you think that relates to what I posted...
Hard to see around the blinders, eh?
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:13 PM   #52
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You describe just another example of societies using taxation as a form of social engineering. Most communities use their tax structure to promote some types of behavior and discourage other behavior.

The answer to your question is simple. These types of tax/social policy help the community to guide behavior in ways that they feel is valuable. The larger community feels that is helpful.
Spoken by a democrat and a true liberal. What right does the "community" have to "guide my behavior"?

I suggest you rethink your ideas of what communities and governments should have the right to do. Remember, we (boat owners) are a group of people who use gasoline and diesel fuel to go places we don't need to go. Outlawing boating would be a great way to save energy.

Think about it.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:24 PM   #53
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This solar powered "Full-Cycle" process for creating atmospherically suspended CO2 based fuels = "Carbon Neutral" fuel supply that will efficiently suffice to run the billion plus liquid hydrocarbon combustion engines throughout the world.

In simplest terms:
1. CO2 gets extracted form atmosphere,
2. CO2 gets turned into "syngas",
3. Syngas gets turned into gasoline, diesel or jet fuel, and;
4 Fuels get burned in combustion engine with CO2 readmitted back into atmosphere

From point #4 go back to point #1... and do it all over again and again; time after time after time!

That is why it is called a "Full-Cycle" "Carbon Neutral" liquid hydrocarbon fuel source. This revolutionary method of a new-source for vehicular and generator and appliance and airplane propellants creates no new CO2.
Art, organic chemistry was never a strong suit of mine. As such, I am am pretty ignorant when it comes to carbon based fuels. As I understand it, syngas is created by combining H2 and CO with a bit of CO2 thrown in.

The syngas can then be used a a carbon source in further reactions to produce a variety of fuels and chemical by-products. In this way, I understand that syngas can be used to create liquid synthetic fuels such as gasoline, diesel, and even liquid fuel cell fuels. How that is actually done and what additional elements need to be added and at what energy cost, I have no idea.

It seems to me that the refining process to go from syngas to a viable liquid fuel would be rather energy intensive in its own right, but again, I have no idea. It seems to me that it can't be easy to turn syngas into stable long-chain hydrocarbons, but what do I know?

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that it is possible to use solar energy to reduce CO2 into CO + O2. I would assume that water would have to be involved as well as a Hydrogen source as part of the process but I don't know. This type of endothermic reaction would be neat trick since I am only aware of plants that can do that when they break one of the CO bonds in CO2 to form carbohydrates.

From the "sounds too good to be true" category, I'm a bit skeptical. My guess would be that the first step of reducing CO2 would require some interesting (ie expensive) catalysts, and then the process of using the CO to create syngas would require more resources, and that is before it is used to create a stable liquid fuel.

If it is practical, as opposed to simply possible, it would be a game changer.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:41 PM   #54
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Spoken by a democrat and a true liberal. What right does the "community" have to "guide my behavior"?

I suggest you rethink your ideas of what communities and governments should have the right to do. Remember, we (boat owners) are a group of people who use gasoline and diesel fuel to go places we don't need to go. Outlawing boating would be a great way to save energy.

Think about it.
You are making all kinds of assumptions there.

The community guides and dictates our behavior all the time. This is done in obvious and not so obvious ways. Are you suggesting that the US (one of our communities) shouldn't have the ability to tell us how we can operate our boats? We would miss out on all the discussion of what is a "stand on" vessel. Why should I have to put a red running light on my port side?

Beyond the safety rules, we have decided through our federal government that we should contribute to it via income tax. I don't like paying taxes, but the greater community has decided that I should. However, that same community, for a variety of reasons, has said that as a home-owner with a mortgage, I don't have to pay as much tax as someone who owns their home outright or is simply renting. The community wanted folks to borrow money from banks for homes, so they used the tax structure to encourage that. They also encourage us to give money to charities via the same mechanism. You and I may not agree with those, but we don't have a choice.

There are lots of ways that our government encourages certain types of behavior and discourages others. Some of them I agree with and others I don't. Those that you or I disagree with, can be changed if I can convince enough other people that it is important.

As for the government incentives to stimulate renewable energy, I am not sure. In some cases I think it can make sense but in others it doesn't. I do find it ironic that the coal and oil industries that complain about incentives going to alternative energy technologies achieved their dominant position in the energy sector in this country in large part through the help and support of the government.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:43 PM   #55
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Assuming you're not working on a perpetual motion machine, where does the energy for 1, 2 and 3 come from?
In the case of step 1, the sun. I have no idea for steps 2 and 3. You asked the question much more succinctly than I.
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Old 07-14-2017, 02:58 PM   #56
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Assuming you're not working on a perpetual motion machine, where does the energy for 1, 2 and 3 come from?
Read carefully: Solar power that also created electricity. Pretty much Everything is derived via clean-production energy
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:49 PM   #57
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If it is practical, as opposed to simply possible, it would be a game changer.
Yes, Dave... That it is - and - that it will become. There is soooo much more to the mix then I have provided access to. Just gave the basics, i.e. similar to a high altitude helicopter view.

I envisioned, invented, designed and own rights my solar powered airflow "machine" - so to say. It's scalable for moving massive amounts of air and while so doing creates MW electricity and potable water!

There are others in the mix for CO2 atmospheric separation, turning CO2 into syngas and turning syngas into fungible, drop-in liquid hydrocarbon fuels.

All in all there is much effort still needing to be accomplished in order to get this big baby up and flying correctly. Resulting new-source fuel industry will become global and its currently known fuel capable components could last well in to the 22nd Century, maybe much longer.

This is necessary and FUN!!

Happy New-Source Energy Daze! - Art
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:55 PM   #58
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Read carefully: Solar power that also created electricity. Pretty much Everything is derived via clean-production energy
Once you have the electricity, why bother with 2 and 3? Exxon spent about $4 Billion (if memory serves) on a syngas plant back in the 70s-80s, when Jimmy Carter made it illegal to burn natural gas, and ended up trash canning it.
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Old 07-14-2017, 04:10 PM   #59
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Hard to see around the blinders, eh?
No, you are just not good at putting your thoughts into words.
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Old 07-14-2017, 04:44 PM   #60
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No, you are just not good at putting your thoughts into words.
Why bother. You are inflexibly position bound, which results in every argument you make to originate from a position of fear and unable to empathically adopt another's viewpoint in order to learn or broaden your own view.
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