Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-12-2017, 04:26 PM   #21
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 8,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
Couple things bout the coming proliferation [i.e., new age Batt-Craze] regarding transportation vehicle and building-power "Batteries":


Your points are good ones. In solving some issues we may be creating others.
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2017, 09:24 PM   #22
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays View Post
Your points are good ones. In solving some issues we may be creating others.
In one of my primary businesses I live and breath circumstances/opportunities regarding clean electric and full cycle hydrocarbon power generation alternatives.

Electric power storage is another side of the coin. That said: Capabilities to continually "cleanly generate" enough power from different sources and for different applications are the geese with golden eggs.

Electric power storage is also very important; however, that procedure's containers'-manifestations are currently riddled with pitfalls of many different types and levels regarding efficiency capabilities and future environmental hazards.

Thoughtful advancement,

Art
__________________

Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2017, 10:33 PM   #23
Guru
 
City: kemah
Country: USA
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 1,135
Lithium? I had one of the local pirates (thats what I call boat repair people in clear lake) tell me the diesel fuel spill that was spreading all over our dock was really lithium from the a/c units cooling coil. What you mean you didnt know marine a/c units had lithium in their condensers?

Never ever let your boat need repairs in clear lake tx.
what_barnacles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2017, 01:11 AM   #24
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 10,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou_tribal View Post
Damned it! I'v just finished to do my new propane installation aboard

L.
Will a mini coal fired power station in the cockpit be illegal too?
__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2017, 01:09 PM   #25
Senior Member
 
City: Houston
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alegría
Vessel Model: Overblue 48
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
I could easily see me going with an electric car and then renting a gasser for long trips. That might be a model that works.
Chevy Volt. Problem solved.

I've had mine for 5+ years and 100,000 miles. Most of the time I'm 100% electric, but road trips on the gas engine, no problem.

I have spent $0 on repairs, and little on maintenance (4 oil changes).

When this one wears out, I'm getting another one.
Cottontop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2017, 01:28 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
City: Bayfield, WI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: All Night Long
Vessel Model: Regal 2765
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 390
Last week I saw something that made me think that this is a new opportunity for marinas. There was a Tesla parked at the one spot that was close enough to the one slip that didn't have a boat in it, and it had a long extension cord running to the pedestal at that slip. If another electric car had needed juice? Or if someone had been using that slip? Not sure what he would have done.

If predictions are accurate, there may be a new service for marinas to sell - power at your parking spot.
BDofMSP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2017, 03:10 PM   #27
Guru
 
AusCan's Avatar
 
City: Adelaide
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Kokanee
Vessel Model: Cuddles 30 Pilot House Motor Sailer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,902
There are plenty of charging stations in this area already.
The city of Adelaide has free electric charging stations in many of their city owned car parks. The bonus is you get free parking while you are getting free electricity. Just another way of promoting a cleaner way a of motoring.
AusCan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2017, 04:26 PM   #28
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by AusCan View Post
There are plenty of charging stations in this area already.
The city of Adelaide has free electric charging stations in many of their city owned car parks. The bonus is you get free parking while you are getting free electricity. Just another way of promoting a cleaner way a of motoring.
"... a cleaner way a of motoring."

Not much cleaner [if at all cleaner] when the electricity comes off an electrical power-grid whose electric plants are burning coal... Even NG emits pollutants. Electrically recharge-powering cars in any location simply shifts the pollution into atmosphere from car exhaust onto electric plant chimney exhaust. With 18 to 22 percent loss factor over electricity power-grid transmission lines to reach the vehicle charge stations even though there are efforts to clean-up electric plant chimney emissions... representative air pollution due to cars is still occurring.

Now... if the electric energy used to recharge vehicle batts comes from "clean" electricity manufacturing sources i.e. PV, Airflow/Wind Blades, Geothermal, Wave/Tidal Action... etc. Then we are on the correct path to curtail atmospheric pollution from vehicles.

That said: After battery powered vehicles become dominant in sales/use... we run into another problem; i.e. taking care of the BILLIONS of Batteries' demise and hopefully 100% batt-product recycling. That in and of itself will become an enormous industry!

Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2017, 04:55 PM   #29
Guru
 
AusCan's Avatar
 
City: Adelaide
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Kokanee
Vessel Model: Cuddles 30 Pilot House Motor Sailer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
"... a cleaner way a of motoring."

Not much cleaner [if at all cleaner] when the electricity comes off an electrical power-grid whose electric plants are burning coal...
Art - You are right - it depends on how your electricity is produced.

Electric cars in South Australia are much cleaner than those running on gasoline or diesel, mainly because we have shut down all of our coal fired power stations.

Wind power and solar supply close to 50% of current electricity production. Natural gas powers about the same amount. Landfill gas and biomass powers the rest. There are a couple small diesel generators as back up in the more remote areas.

Overall, it is not as clean as the electricity production in Tasmania, Quebec or British Columbia which which are over 90% hydro-powered, but far cleaner than most.
AusCan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2017, 06:23 PM   #30
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,864
Art's looking at the big picture...I'm just looking at trends and guessing that some benefits might trickle my way.

In Canada we have lots of hydro (dam-water-turbine) power, so less air born pollution transfer from car to power plant.
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" Murray Minchin
MurrayM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2017, 08:01 PM   #31
Guru
 
Lou_tribal's Avatar
 
City: Quebec
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Bleuvet
Vessel Model: Custom Built
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
"... a cleaner way a of motoring."

Not much cleaner [if at all cleaner] when the electricity comes off an electrical power-grid whose electric plants are burning coal... Even NG emits pollutants. Electrically recharge-powering cars in any location simply shifts the pollution into atmosphere from car exhaust onto electric plant chimney exhaust. With 18 to 22 percent loss factor over electricity power-grid transmission lines to reach the vehicle charge stations even though there are efforts to clean-up electric plant chimney emissions... representative air pollution due to cars is still occurring.

Now... if the electric energy used to recharge vehicle batts comes from "clean" electricity manufacturing sources i.e. PV, Airflow/Wind Blades, Geothermal, Wave/Tidal Action... etc. Then we are on the correct path to curtail atmospheric pollution from vehicles.

That said: After battery powered vehicles become dominant in sales/use... we run into another problem; i.e. taking care of the BILLIONS of Batteries' demise and hopefully 100% batt-product recycling. That in and of itself will become an enormous industry!

You nailed it down. A lot of people love the electric cars who are not releasing any gases... well yes, but if every kidam get an electric car... think about it. Some places already produce electricity from coal, some place already have issue to provide electricity to everybody... magine if you add the load of 2 or 3 car per house. Electricity may be clean when we use it but it s certainly not when we produce it...

But like Murray I am interested in lithium batteries. The day they will become cheaper I will certainly replace my oldies acid batteries with them as they are so much better.
If you lot at anything powered by batteries it followed the same path... straight old batteries to end with lithium batteries and it is not for no reason.

L.
Lou_tribal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2017, 08:08 PM   #32
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou_tribal View Post
Damned it! I'v just finished to do my new propane installation aboard



L.
Lou, don't be too disturbed about that. It takes about 900 watts of solar panels to run and electric cook top and small refrigerator with a Danfoss compressor.
Even in RVs unless you are in the SW with unrestricted sun it's borderline. You may be able to run a 13-15,000 btu A/C for only a couple of hours.

For most propane will be king for cooking, refrigeration, hot water, and heating in RVs for a long time to come. I follow a couple of guys who have made the conversion to electric, but they are all in the SW.

Solar and wind power are great. They are just not there yet.
__________________
Don on Moonstruck
Sabre 42 Hardtop Express & Blackfin 25 CC
When cruising life is simpler, but on a grander scale (author unknown)
http://moonstruckblog.wordpress.com/
Moonstruck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 10:09 AM   #33
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,385
Quote:
Originally Posted by AusCan View Post
There are plenty of charging stations in this area already.
The city of Adelaide has free electric charging stations in many of their city owned car parks. The bonus is you get free parking while you are getting free electricity. Just another way of promoting a cleaner way a of motoring.
Just another way of the government ripping off taxpayers. Electric vehicles need to be able to survive on their own with the drivers paying for their own "fuel". And while the brainwashed masses claim that electric vehicles create no pollution, the fact is, they create pollution, it's just not in their neighborhood, it in someone else's neighborhood where they mine and/or burn the coal to produce the electricity to run these "pollution free" vehicles.

So the government is subsidizing the production and operation of electric vehicles. The government itself has no money to do this, it is taking money from taxpayers and giving it to other taxpayers to buy and operate these vehicles. Where does that help anything?
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 10:13 AM   #34
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,385
Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayM View Post
......................... In Canada we have lots of hydro (dam-water-turbine) power, so less air born pollution transfer from car to power plant.
And in the USA, we have tree huggers demanding that dams be removed so the fish can swim upstream. There is close to zero chance that another hydro electric power plant will ever be built in this country even though they generate no pollution and the resulting power is produced at near zero cost other than the one time cost of building the dam and power plant.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 10:26 AM   #35
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
And in the USA, we have tree huggers demanding that dams be removed so the fish can swim upstream. There is close to zero chance that another hydro electric power plant will ever be built in this country even though they generate no pollution and the resulting power is produced at near zero cost other than the one time cost of building the dam and power plant.
That's because, as far as your lower 48 west is concerned, you have zero rivers which run free to the sea. Not a problem in Canada
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" Murray Minchin
MurrayM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 10:29 AM   #36
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,864
The Colorado River doesn't even reach the ocean any more. Your rivers do need help...
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" Murray Minchin
MurrayM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 10:59 AM   #37
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: Litchfield, Ct/Punta Gorda, Fl
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Atlas Pompano 23
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,902
Let's look at the entire carbon picture for plug in electric cars vs gasoline powered cars.

A gasoline engine converts about 20% of its thermal energy to work, ie moving the car. And it is burning a hydrocarbon so CO2, the greenhouse gas is produced. There is another X% of green house gasses produced in the exploration, production, refining and transportation of that gasoline and I have no idea what that is, but it is significant.

Now lets look at plug in electric. It uses electricity from the grid to charge it up. Yes there are maybe 20% losses in transmission and charging efficiency. But all new electricity is being made from natural gas or renewables. So lets look at natural gas, the biggest fuel for power produced in the US right now.

You can use natural gas two ways to make power: cogeneration facilities or straight burning in boilers which mostly are coal conversions today. Cogeneration converts 45+% of the energy in natural gas to power and even more if the waste heat is used in industrial processes. Simple burning of natural gas in boilers converts about 35% of the energy to power.

Then there is the amount of greenhouse gasses produced for each fuel. For equivalent btu produced, natural gas produces significantly less CO2 when it is burned than gasoline due to the molecular structure of each fuel.

Sooooo, my guess based on the above is that an electric car produces half or less of the CO2 of a gasoline car. And that number will decrease as power generation shifts to renewables.

David
djmarchand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 11:17 AM   #38
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 8,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by AusCan View Post
There are plenty of charging stations in this area already.
The city of Adelaide has free electric charging stations in many of their city owned car parks. The bonus is you get free parking while you are getting free electricity. Just another way of promoting a cleaner way a of motoring.
Cleaner, maybe or maybe not. Where do those KWs come from? And, some even like to drive 1000 kms in a day. Even Elon Musk is now saying the answer to a cleaner planet is - gasp - fewer people! Chinese sales of Tessa's have recently cratered, subsidies are gone.

Kinda funny that we are talking from one of the least efficient means of travel, power boats.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 11:22 AM   #39
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,267
Sorry djmarchand, renewables are only 15% in the US. Natural gas is big... but only 33%.

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source?

In 2016, about 4.08 trillion kilowatthours (kWh) of electricity1 were generated at utility-scale facilities in the United States.2 About 65% of this electricity generation was from fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, petroleum, and other gases), about 20% was from nuclear energy, and about 15% was from renewable energy sources. The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that an additional 19 billion kWh (or about 0.02 trillion kWh) of electricity generation was from small-scale solar photovoltaic systems in 2016.3

Major energy sources and percent shares of U.S. electricity generation at utility-scale facilities in 20161

Natural gas = 33.8%
Coal = 30.4%
Nuclear = 19.7%
Renewables (total) = 14.9%
Hydropower = 6.5%
Wind = 5.6%
Biomass = 1.5%
Solar = 0.9%
Geothermal = 0.4%
Petroleum = 0.6%
Other gases = 0.3%
Other nonrenewable sources = 0.3%
Pumped storage hydroelectricity = -0.2%4
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2017, 11:23 AM   #40
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,267
Electric cars are not a panacea.

We have it a bit better - In 2013, the leading type of power generation by utilities in Canada is hydroelectricity, with a share of 60.1%. Nuclear (15.8%), natural gas (10.3%), coal (10%), wind (1.8%), fuel oil (1.2%), biofuels and waste (0. ...
__________________

__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×