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Old 10-15-2017, 07:48 AM   #21
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"Upsize your charger (60-100A) to a 2- or 3-bank charger."

This works but is expensive and frequently not a lot faster.

If you prefer to anchor out a lot installing a truck 135A --$140 alt with another $100+ for a 3 or 4 stage voltage regulator belted on to the noisemaker with dual belts is simple , long lasting and really charges at full amperage .

The hard part is finding out how much power can be taken off the front of the noisemaker , purchasing the pulley and building a bracket for the alt.

IF the noisemaker is water cooled its fresh water circuit can feed the FW heat exchanger to create "free" hot fresh water.
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Old 10-15-2017, 10:17 AM   #22
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If going to the trouble with extensive alt mods, put in a large-frame if you have room.

And a good ext reg like Balmar MC-614 really helps manage the charge cycle and to get the max power from the alt when heat becomes an issue.
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Old 10-15-2017, 10:25 AM   #23
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What ever you do, what ever modifications you make, think of the next owner. He will have to understand and live with your modifications.
At least leave him a good diagram and dialog explaining your modifications and it will remind you too.
Let's face it, we are all going to die..... If we die away from the boat, anything we leave to explain our modifications will make the boat more salable. If we die on the boat, let's hope we are discovered before we begin to smell bad. CHUCKLE
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Old 10-15-2017, 11:24 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"Upsize your charger (60-100A) to a 2- or 3-bank charger."

This works but is expensive and frequently not a lot faster.

If you prefer to anchor out a lot installing a truck 135A --$140 alt with another $100+ for a 3 or 4 stage voltage regulator belted on to the noisemaker with dual belts is simple , long lasting and really charges at full amperage .

The hard part is finding out how much power can be taken off the front of the noisemaker , purchasing the pulley and building a bracket for the alt.

IF the noisemaker is water cooled its fresh water circuit can feed the FW heat exchanger to create "free" hot fresh water.


Indeed we spend most of our boating time at the hook for weekends. I still have to find out what the current alternator is capable of, not sure of its amperage rating but it is working fine for the current setup. May be to small for more batteries though.
I already use the fresh water cooling circuit to make hot water. I am upgrading my old leaky 6gal water heater with a 11 gal which will be enough hot water for 2 days for two of us.
If possible I would prefer to keep the current alternator as it is new and if forced to do so I would prefer to replace it with a more powerful one than adding another one but adding one.
I am surprise about the price of marine alternator versus automotive ones, what is the justification for such differences???

L
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Old 10-15-2017, 11:26 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by OldDan1943 View Post
What ever you do, what ever modifications you make, think of the next owner. He will have to understand and live with your modifications.
At least leave him a good diagram and dialog explaining your modifications and it will remind you too.
Let's face it, we are all going to die..... If we die away from the boat, anything we leave to explain our modifications will make the boat more salable. If we die on the boat, let's hope we are discovered before we begin to smell bad. CHUCKLE


For sure I will document the changes. I am already going through having no doc about electrical wiring, plumbing and all systems so I do it as much as I can. Good point when you have to search how things work is that you come to know your boat and you always find some surprises

L
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Old 10-15-2017, 12:22 PM   #26
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This thread has jumped all over the place but has only touched on the fundamental issue.

The fundamental question in my mind is what are the advantages of two house banks feeding separate loads? I can't think of any. You say that your fridge will last 2-3 days on 4 GC batteries. Ok, so what happens to the other bank during that period that is only powering lights and radio. It probably is only 25% discharged after that period. If it were combined in one big bank you could use the remaining 25% to run the fridge a little longer.

And switching two banks in and out of the house loads after one discharges to 50% doesn't do anything that having them all connected in the first place will do. In fact it makes it worse as you are pulling a higher percentage of the batteries capacity out, so its AH capacity is less.

If you were to simply add 4 GCs to your existing bank and better still also replace the 2 G31s with 2 GCs then you would avoid all of the problems mentioned above with 3 output chargers, isolation, combiners, mixed battery types, non deep cycle G31s, etc.

And the only reason to upgrade your 120V charger is to charge faster with the genset. A bigger combined house bank will make that easier as the bigger bank will accept charge faster and longer as it recharges. But if you can cover all of your needs for a long weekend without recharging using the genset, then the current charger will fully recharge at the dock in a few days.

So, keep it simple. Upgrade to 6 GCs in one bank and if you really need to recharge fast from the genset then upgrade your 120V charger to 100A.

David
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Old 10-15-2017, 12:42 PM   #27
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This thread has jumped all over the place but has only touched on the fundamental issue.

The fundamental question in my mind is what are the advantages of two house banks feeding separate loads? I can't think of any. You say that your fridge will last 2-3 days on 4 GC batteries. Ok, so what happens to the other bank during that period that is only powering lights and radio. It probably is only 25% discharged after that period. If it were combined in one big bank you could use the remaining 25% to run the fridge a little longer.

And switching two banks in and out of the house loads after one discharges to 50% doesn't do anything that having them all connected in the first place will do. In fact it makes it worse as you are pulling a higher percentage of the batteries capacity out, so its AH capacity is less.

If you were to simply add 4 GCs to your existing bank and better still also replace the 2 G31s with 2 GCs then you would avoid all of the problems mentioned above with 3 output chargers, isolation, combiners, mixed battery types, non deep cycle G31s, etc.

And the only reason to upgrade your 120V charger is to charge faster with the genset. A bigger combined house bank will make that easier as the bigger bank will accept charge faster and longer as it recharges. But if you can cover all of your needs for a long weekend without recharging using the genset, then the current charger will fully recharge at the dock in a few days.

So, keep it simple. Upgrade to 6 GCs in one bank and if you really need to recharge fast from the genset then upgrade your 120V charger to 100A.

David


Thank you David.
To clarify my points, the reason to keep the 2 groups 31 (deep cycle) is to avoid spending 500$ for 2 gc2 to replace them when these two would be enough to power everything but my fridge.
I agree about what you said about the charger, as usually we spend 2 to 3 days aboard followed by 5 days at the dock, even with a smaller charger it will do fine.

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Old 10-15-2017, 12:44 PM   #28
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I'll just repeat
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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
go with a bigger GC bank and toss the old 12V, really have little value, between Peukert, KISS, no additional infrastructure, clearly the way to go IMO.
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Old 10-15-2017, 12:48 PM   #29
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the reason to keep the 2 groups 31 (deep cycle) is to avoid spending 500$ for 2 gc2
wut?

Last I checked the Sam's were under $200 per pair. They are new. Going to more of them takes care of everything, gains from Peukert, much shallower cycling means longer lifespan.

No costly changes to infrastructure.

Less complexity.
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Old 10-15-2017, 01:02 PM   #30
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wut?

Last I checked the Sam's were under $200 per pair. They are new. Going to more of them takes care of everything, gains from Peukert, much shallower cycling means longer lifespan.

No costly changes to infrastructure.

Less complexity.


Up here a single gc2 is around 200$ plus tax (lowest price I found was 190) so 230$ tax included.

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Old 10-15-2017, 01:16 PM   #31
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Well, I would still not go with two house banks. Keep the old 12V as Starters maybe, or see if you can get something for them on CL.

But your boat of course
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Old 10-15-2017, 01:18 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou_tribal View Post
To clarify my points, the reason to keep the 2 groups 31 (deep cycle) is to avoid spending 500$ for 2 gc2 to replace them when these two would be enough to power everything but my fridge.
Quote:
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wut?
Last I checked the Sam's were under $200 per pair. They are new.
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Up here a single gc2 is around 200$ plus tax (lowest price I found was 190) so 230$ tax included.

????

Would have thought T-105s would be reasonably affordable, and Sam's or Costcos or whatever even less expensive...

How far are you from the border? Road trip?

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Old 10-15-2017, 01:47 PM   #33
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????



Would have thought T-105s would be reasonably affordable, and Sam's or Costcos or whatever even less expensive...



How far are you from the border? Road trip?



-Chris


T105 are around 235$ plus taxes.
For 190$ I can have Similar one shop branded, either princess auto or canadian tire.

I am living 1h from the vermont border this may be another option depending on price, xchange rate and hassle to go there and through customs.

L
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Old 10-15-2017, 03:35 PM   #34
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Lou:

Ok batteries are expensive in your neck of the woods. But how about the cost of wire, switches, fuses, a combiner or ACR to install a second bank? That has to be more than $500 at your prices.

And I suggested replacing the Group 31s to get a bit more amp hours, have a real deep cycle battery and avoid mixing battery types with the GCs. If the G31s are FLAs you don't absolutely need to do that.

David
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Old 10-15-2017, 03:58 PM   #35
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Did you identify the fridge that is causing all of this discussion? If you did, it has become lost in the discussion, but the fridge is at the heart of the problem. If you are not running a DC only, Dan Foss style fridge, you have far more load on your house bank than you should. That should be corrected immediately.
Then you can address the issues of bank capacity and charging capacity.
If you get your fridge draw under control by changing to the DC only Dan Foss fridge, you will need only 4 GC size deep cycle Lead Acid batteries for all of your house needs. those will be adequately charged, if on the hook, by one hour of genset time every morning and possibly another hour of genset at dinner time. You will want hot water at both of those times, so will be able to maximize the load on your genset while running it for charging.
You should also have a smart 3 stage regulator to take the shore, genset or alternator supplied charging power and feed it judiciously to your new house bank.
You won't need to do all of these necessary changes at once. the order is this:
1 Fridge to Dan Foss DC only
2 Inverter charger of 100 amp capacity with three stage, smart output
3 4 GC sized, Deep cycle LA batteries
4 100 amp alternator with 3 stage, smart output.

Don't try to mix in your existing 2 gp 31 batteries. If you can't bear throwing them out, use them up first, then switch to a new house bank of 4 GC size.

Did I mention the Fridge? Do it now. Don't put up with the power hog that drives you nuts for a moment longer.
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Old 10-15-2017, 04:09 PM   #36
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A bit of solar will help get the bank to 100% full.

No dinojuice charge source will do that unless run all day long.
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Old 10-15-2017, 06:12 PM   #37
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My fridge is a 110/12V. While working fine it is a bit old. Not sure of the power draw yet. Use it in 12vv at the anchor and 110 at the marina.
I won't need an inverter as almost everything is 12v aboard. I modified all lights with 12v bulbs. The only 110V appliance would the coffee grinder (water heater is 110v but engine produce water hot enough).

I plan to add solar but not next year. I want to build a roof above my aft deck that will integrate the panels but will be done later.

Looking at gc2 price in US (82USD each at Sam's, thank you Mr John61), I may look at discarding the group 31 and replace this by 8 gc2. One question though, any issue with installing 4 gc2 on each side of the engine? This would equilibrate the charge but will require 6 to 8 feet wires to combine them.

L
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Old 10-15-2017, 06:16 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koliver View Post
Lou
Did you identify the fridge that is causing all of this discussion? If you did, it has become lost in the discussion, but the fridge is at the heart of the problem. If you are not running a DC only, Dan Foss style fridge, you have far more load on your house bank than you should. That should be corrected immediately.
....
Did I mention the Fridge? Do it now. Don't put up with the power hog that drives you nuts for a moment longer.
Great point! When I replaced my dead Norcold (3.1 cu ft) with a same footprint NovaKool (5.8 cu ft), I gained 87% capacity and save about 40% power. I am considering adding this gizmo to save even more energy and allow the NovaKool automatically defrost.

Fridge Optimizer | Stainless Lobster | Creative Marine Products
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Old 10-15-2017, 06:46 PM   #39
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Great point! When I replaced my dead Norcold (3.1 cu ft) with a same footprint NovaKool (5.8 cu ft), I gained 87% capacity and save about 40% power. I am considering adding this gizmo to save even more energy and allow the NovaKool automatically defrost.



Fridge Optimizer | Stainless Lobster | Creative Marine Products


Not sure about my fridge model but looks like your old one with false wood door and I estimate its capacity to something around 3cu.
It is in plans to replace it but available space is very limited due to hull shape that limit rear extend at the bottom of the fridge.

L
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Old 10-15-2017, 07:10 PM   #40
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Some are concerned with multiple batteries being connected where there is a longer run to some batteries than others. But as long as the wire is big enough (sized for the inverter input if you have one otherwise connect the two with 1/0) then I wouldn't worry about separating one group of GCs from another by 8'.

David
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