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Old 10-05-2014, 09:29 AM   #41
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The ANC hearing protection I had would cut off load noises, like gun shots, and lower the level of the tractor engine noise which was the primary reason I bought the head set. However, the unit would also amplify low level noise. I would listen to birds, tree rats and deer with and without the hearing protection in use. The headset would noticeably amply the very low level critter noise.

I think the ANC hearing protection I had would increase the ability to hear someone fall over board and call for help. Certainly one could easily test this by having someone at the helm listen for someone talking a good distance away and throwing something overboard. Hopefully, not the wife or noisy children.

Another thing to consider with loud noise is that it tires you out. If the noise at the helm is so noisy that it is bothersome, I would be concerned that the noise fatigue would reduce my reaction time and maybe prevent me from noticing a cry for help or splash of someone falling overboard.

Later,
Dan
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Old 10-05-2014, 09:37 AM   #42
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This could morph into a single versus twin debate. At full cruise the Lehman 135 on Bay Pelican generates 63 DB of noise in the saloon directly above the engine room. I have ready earmuffs for any entry into the engine room underway.
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Old 10-05-2014, 10:21 AM   #43
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This could morph into a single versus twin debate. At full cruise the Lehman 135 on Bay Pelican generates 63 DB of noise in the saloon directly above the engine room. I have ready earmuffs for any entry into the engine room underway.
Or it could be builder vs. builder or engine manufacturer vs. engine manufacturer. Although not trawlers, I'll use these comparisons as an example of how major the difference can be with large engines of different brands on different boats. For instance, Westport with twin MTU's. A Westport Pacific Mariner 85' with twin 1500 hp MTU's 51 db at 750 rpm, 60 db at WOT or a Westport 130' with twin 2895 hp MTU's 51 db at 750 rpm, 60 db at WOT. Compare to Hatteras in the same size (Both 60' and 100') and hp ranges but with CAT and they are 67 db at 600 rpm and 85 db at WOT.

Nordhavn 50' with 250 hp Lugger. 65 db at 1000 rpm, 69 db at WOT.

Nordhavn 75' with twin 740 hp MTU. 62 db at 1000 rpm, 75 db at WOT.

Nordic Tug 34' with 260 hp Yanmar, 58 db at 750 rpm, 88 db at WOT.

KK 39' with 120 hp John Deere, 64 db at 1000 rpm, 76 db at WOT.

Sea Ray 510 Fly with twin 600 hp Cummins, 60 db at 600 rpm, 85 db at WOT.

Cigarette 38' with twin 550 hp Mercruiser, 81 db at 1000 rpm, 107 db at WOT. Can you say deafness?

I would look back at our discussions of what to look for in a boat and say that sound is perhaps one characteristic we've overlooked the most. We get out on the water for the peacefulness. Well, we own a boat that is 50 db to 60 db and another that is 71 db to 80 db. The latter might be labeled exhilarating but the former is sure a lot more peaceful. I would add sound as a characteristic to consider in a purchase.
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Old 10-05-2014, 11:45 AM   #44
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I would add sound as a characteristic to consider in a purchase.
I'm not sure where you get all those numbers, but emphatically agree with that last statement. I put my faith in a sea trial first and foremost as certain sound patterns bother certain people differently. Personally I couldn't own a cruising boat where ear protection is needed at the helm. I also think you have to be able to hear something, as changes in sound can be a key indicator of something going wrong.
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Old 10-05-2014, 12:38 PM   #45
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I'm not sure where you get all those numbers, but emphatically agree with that last statement. I put my faith in a sea trial first and foremost as certain sound patterns bother certain people differently. Personally I couldn't own a cruising boat where ear protection is needed at the helm. I also think you have to be able to hear something, as changes in sound can be a key indicator of something going wrong.
Various boat tests. Powerandmotoryacht and boattest have the most. But sometimes there are other sites and sometimes the builder has tests. We chartered a lot for about a year and the differences we observed there were dramatic. The entire experience, just the feeling of calm, was so enhanced by quieter boats. If you're out for a high speed 40 mile trip it's one thing, but if you're taking a leisurely cruise it's quite different. It turned out to be important to us even though we did not have it even listed on our initial requirements.
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Old 10-05-2014, 02:21 PM   #46
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I love my Bose NC headsets, great on commercial flights as they drown out the cry's of children and young adults. They do attenuate sounds passively as well as actively so they will remove sounds from all spectrum's of your hearing not just the engine running, that could be bad.............
Unless there's a way to tune them to a specific frequency they are going to attenuate all frequencies and all sounds, bad and good.
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Old 10-05-2014, 02:29 PM   #47
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...... I already have a 5-speaker Bose speaker system in my salon. How hard can it be to mount a couple of microphones and a processor to feed the reverse phase audio signal into the speakers to attenuate the ambient noise? I think it would be a much better option than wearing headsets..
You would get nothing but a feedback howl. It only works if you can control the sound your ears hear and feed them an equal amplitude out of phase signal. Like with headphones.
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Old 10-05-2014, 03:00 PM   #48
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You would get nothing but a feedback howl. It only works if you can control the sound your ears hear and feed them an equal amplitude out of phase signal. Like with headphones.
Have you ever been in an environment with active noise cancelling? It doesn't work that way at all. I have spent many hours in aircraft with ANC throughout the cabin and there is no feedback. That's just nonsense.
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Old 10-05-2014, 03:06 PM   #49
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Active Noise Canceling Hearing Protection

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Have you ever been in an environment with active noise cancelling? It doesn't work that way at all. I have spent many hours in aircraft with ANC throughout the cabin and there is no feedback. That's just nonsense.

Although I asked earlier, this was the same reasoning I was thinking of. Unlike your airplane (which has a fairly constant pitch, harmonic and drone) a boat sound varies with engine load, seas hitting, and other variables. I would think a boat equalizer would be way more complicated. No never been 'in' a sound attenuated environment. Wondering how it would work on a boat though.

Regarding your plane experience: is it 'On' all the time? Or only after reaching cruising altitude?
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Old 10-05-2014, 03:06 PM   #50
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There is technology that will be coming to market soon that allows you to tune out specific noises and let in others. Even to the point of only canceling out someone's snoring, for instance. Pretty amazing.
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Old 10-05-2014, 03:21 PM   #51
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Regarding your plane experience: is it 'On' all the time? Or only after reaching cruising altitude?
It was selectable on/off, but it remained on during the entire flight. The concept is to reduce the droning sounds, leaving conversation and other signaling sounds audible. It works so great that once you operate with it on, you really miss it when it's off or inoperative.
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Old 10-05-2014, 03:38 PM   #52
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I am going with Flywright!! "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."!!

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Old 10-05-2014, 05:53 PM   #53
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Have you ever been in an environment with active noise cancelling? It doesn't work that way at all. I have spent many hours in aircraft with ANC throughout the cabin and there is no feedback. That's just nonsense.
"Nonsense"? I thought we were supposed to be "nice" here? That's what I've been told anyway.

As a former electronic technician specializing in audio, I would really like a link on how this would work technically. I haven't seen anything like this available to the public (to reduce sound from nearby highways or airports, etc.).

Please explain how sound can be cancelled out in a large space.
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Old 10-05-2014, 06:13 PM   #54
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Effective insulation in the engine room or on the floor above I would think would be a more reasonable way to address pilothouse noise than having to wear ear protection. ...
I agree. Can't you upgrade the sound insulation? One can hold normal conversations in my pilothouse directly above the engine, having rubber gaskets on the engine compartment lids as well as insulation in the compartment's ceiling and rubber engine mounts.



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Old 10-05-2014, 06:15 PM   #55
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wow!!!!!

the shoe on the other foot....
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Old 10-05-2014, 07:49 PM   #56
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I agree. Can't you upgrade the sound insulation? One can hold normal conversations in my pilothouse directly above the engine, having rubber gaskets on the engine compartment lids as well as insulation in the compartment's ceiling and rubber engine mounts.



Mine looks like yours with 4" or so of insulation and acoustical tile on the bottom (top of the engine compartment. Raising a hatch to check the running engine is obvious even from the flybridge.
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Old 10-05-2014, 08:06 PM   #57
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Please explain how sound can be cancelled out in a large space.
📡🔇. That's how. Simple, huh?

If this was an easy thing to accomplish...... It'd be done already.
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Old 10-06-2014, 12:09 AM   #58
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Big thanks to all who have contributed to the discussion. I am a regular on another forum that is primarily sailing oriented and it is no surprise that the responses (to this engine related question) have much greater depth on this forum.

O.K. so I found out that one of the noise canceling headsets that I use in aircraft is able to be used "on its own" (I previously believed that the headsets needed to be plugged into the aircraft intercom to activate).

These headsets are made for small piston aircraft (loud). They have large earcups with nice fitting earseals and provide a degree of PASSIVE noise attenuation much like any other simple muff type hearing protector. They also have active noise cancellation circuitry that is switchable on/off.

Today I gave the the headsets a try aboard Panope. Here is the deal:

-I was alone on the boat so I tuned the VHF to the continuous weather broadcast to see if hearing voices was a problem or not.

-I set cruising rpm at 2500 and listened to the VHF - everything normal.

-I then put the headphones on WITHOUT activating the ANC and found that Mid to High pitch sounds were attenuated from both the engine and the VHF. The VHF remained just as audible as before. The low frequency drone (the sound that I find bothersome after a couple hours) from the engine was basically unchanged.

-I then activated the ANC. The ANC on these headphones did not change the Mid and High frequencies at all. The ANC did not reduce the volume of the VHF whatsoever. The ANC on these headphones eliminated the low frequency drone almost entirely. Just what I was looking for. Wonderful!

-The attenuation of the low frequency drone caused the voice on the VHF to be much easier to hear. I was able to turn the volume DOWN on the VHF. Great!

I noticed that the headsets that I was originally considering ( ProTech NoiseBuster Noise-Canceling Over-The-Head Safety Earmuff Specifications. Call 203-210-7230 Noise-canceling ANR Safety Earmuff. Noise Reduction, Model: PA4000 Professional Industrial hearing protection. ) have ANC circuitry that ONLY attenuates the frequencies between 20 hertz and 800 (the audible range for humans is 20 - 20,000) I believe this corresponds well with the headsets that I tried today (I do not have manufacture data for these).

Panope's pilot house (see avatar) is directly over the engine. The pilot house sole is 3/4" Starboard. Starboard is quite dense and free of resonance. I have not yet added insulation to the floor (planning on Soundown). As a result of past experiences attempting to block low frequencies from 2 different aircraft (one wooden, one metal), I am not confident that the addition of Soundown insulation will produce a large attenuation of the LOW frequencies.

I downloaded a free Decibel Meter "APP" for my Android device. The readings in Panope's pilot house were 70 db at low cruise (1600 rpm) to 80 db at high cruse (3000 rpm) I cannot imagine that this "meter" is something to be accurate and reliable.

Note: I am a 6,000+ hour small aircraft pilot and all of this time has been spent with full size headsets on my head. My tolerance for wearing these devices may be much greater than others.

Steve
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Old 10-06-2014, 12:44 AM   #59
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Steve, is that a Bose X you used in the air? I ordered Oregon Aero Soft Seal ear seals and soft tops to make earmuff style headsets wearable for 6-8 hrs each day. It was the best money I spent to improve the comfort of headsets.

Thanks for posting your results. Sounds like you might be on to something. (pun intended)
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Old 10-06-2014, 01:03 AM   #60
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Steve, is that a Bose X you used in the air? I ordered Oregon Aero Soft Seal ear seals and soft tops to make earmuff style headsets wearable for 6-8 hrs each day. It was the best money I spent to improve the comfort of headsets.

Thanks for posting your results. Sounds like you might be on to something. (pun intended)
Al, I am a David Clark fan. My normal headset is the H10-13X ENC Fixed Wing Headsets | David Clark Company | Worcester, MA I use the stock "gell" earpads.

The headsets that I tried in the boat today are an older set of Lightspeed 15xl Lightspeed Aviation - XL Series Headsets - Discontinued

I will give this a couple more days of thought before I make a purchase.

Steve
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