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Old 03-01-2013, 01:18 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl View Post
Just want everyone out there in Forum Land following this thread to remeber that I will not be crossing oceans alone. I won't even be crossing my harbor alone or pulling out of my slip alone for a very long time. I will have lots of training and captained trips for a few years.
Since that's the case, why not simplify things and get a smaller / less expensive / less risky boat first? Consider something like a Grand Banks 49. This will have plenty of rooom (you can add two extra upper v-berths in the forward stateroom).

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi..._id=11384&url=

1983 Grand Banks 49 Classic Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

And by the way, if you really do want a true passagemaker that will have enough room for your family, cross oceans, and still be under your budget, take a look at Mareva. This is a hell of a boat, I tried to buy her 10 years ago and spent many hours aboard.

1962 Romsdal North Sea Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

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Old 03-01-2013, 02:15 PM   #62
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My 2 cents worth when considering at a vessel intended for a blue water crossing by a newbie -
  1. 80% of problems caused by water contaminated fuel, I'm not so sure of that unless the vessel has been neglected which then would cause you to walk away.
  2. Compression checks on an otherwise good running diesel are not relevant
  3. If the vessel does not start right up without a lot of smoke, walk away.
  4. If the vessel cannot achieve rated RPM with the current props, walk away.
  5. If the vessel overheats at full rated RPM for 5 minutes or so, walk away.
  6. Dirty ER with oil, fuel and water in the bilge - be very wary.
  7. No good service records - be very wary.
  8. Smells bad - why
  9. Look for a well documented blue water designed vessel with a safe range of 2500 miles.
To find a blue water proven vessel that meets the above criteria will limit one to higher end vessels where the PO has spent the maintenance dollars. The capacity need of GG's for 5 kids, Captain and animals notwithstanding - the ideal vessel lurks in the 46' to 57' Nordhavns, 52' Seahorse/Diesel Duck, 57' Northern Marine or 48' Krogen. Anything over these sizes gets one well above a million $$ real fast.

My 2 cents worth when considering at a vessel intended for a blue water crossing by a newbie -
  1. 80% of problems caused by water contaminated fuel, I'm not so sure of that unless the vessel has been neglected which then would cause you to walk away. The water contamination is something that can happen to anyone, even for a new yacht taking on contaminated fuel. That can happen in the USA too. Maybe I went overboard on this a little about fuel filters, but bad fuel can stop a trawler with two engines if both are on the same tank. Part of the issue here is the engines could run fine until bad weather shakes the fuel and water up causing failure when you need the engine to control the boat. In this case a para anchor or drogues could be deployed, but should have these anyway.
  2. Compression checks on an otherwise good running diesel are not relevant. You can have valves and rings that are starting to leak, but with enough compression to start in summer temperatures. One trick to watch out for is an engine that is already warm. It could be hard starting when cold, but start easy when warm. Even a newer engine can have cylinder walls that have problems. It is better to spend the money to have this checked.
  3. If the vessel does not start right up without a lot of smoke, walk away. It depends on the type of smoke. If it smells like raw diesel with a white color, then probably bad compression; otherwise let it warm up a little. Black smoke can be an injector problem easily fixed if the cylinder walls are still in good shape. Compression test will tell if this is a problem.
  4. If the vessel cannot achieve rated RPM with the current props, walk away. Could be the propeller has a lot of marine growth on it. A good cleaning should take care of it
  5. If the vessel overheats at full rated RPM for 5 minutes or so, walk away. I would say after half an hour warm-up, but could be a bad strainer or raw water pump, both easily fixed.
  6. Dirty ER with oil, fuel and water in the bilge - be very wary. Oil could be from bad seals which are usually found on an old engine. A can of seal softener can take care of this for several years. It could be just a sloppy oil change. Water could be from the stuffing box and those are supposed to leak about a drop a minute for lubrication of propeller shaft at this seal while engine is running. That's half a quart a day. Water could indicate a problem with hoses so a careful inspection is needed for that. As for a fuel leak, need to check return lines. If manual injection, check all high pressure lines and low pressure lines to fuel injection pump. If electronically controlled, there will be no high pressure lines as these are contained within the head usually, but low pressure lines could be a problem. Check injectors on both types. None of these are high cost items.
  7. No good service records - be very wary. Of course records are a good idea, especially when last oil change was done. A lot of times this is neglected because a lot of inboards are hard to get to. An oil analysis will tell something about if routine maintenance was done. If there are no records, but a careful assessment is done of the engine condition, compression, oil analysis, myself, I still would consider it if the engine overall looked in good condition, like clean, good belts and hoses and whether the raw water pump looked like it had been services every other year or so.
  8. Smells bad - why If it smells, I would be more concerned with the holding tank vents and hoses for the head. Which come to think of it, does the boat have a holding tank? Important unless you are three miles off shore and more.
  9. Look for a well documented blue water designed vessel with a safe range of 2500 miles. There are some trawlers that look commercial, like the Seahorse Diesel Duck, Ellemaid 71, Kasten Vagabond 50' Steel, and Cape Horn Trawlers that some would shy away from because they are not designed for entertaining, but are true ocean going.
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:45 PM   #63
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Chris,
I'm fairly sure that I have seen EVERY power trawler on yachtworld , with the exception of the too small for me ones...
I have found that searching yachtworld.com; Craigs List; ebay; marinesource.com; boattrader.com; boatquest.com/; boatworld,com still does not get all the boats that are out there. People will advertise in really weird places. Have you tried Google? I find it works best if you have a specific make of boat in mind. Yahoo might pick up a few things Google misses, but rarely, and sometimes Yahoo will miss something. For Craigslist, use http://www.searchtempest.com/ which makes the search much easier
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:49 PM   #64
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Westwinds

We're speaking of boat buying here, not boat fixing. Words for a savvy buyer to be wary of that come to my mind are pristine, bristol or like new and then all the necessary repair stuff that you mention raises its head. Uh Uh.

I'm different than you, but when boat shopping unless things are in good working order and look right, I walk. Some look for solutions to problems they encounter or simpler said - "fixer upper" project boats. I'm not one and it doesn't sound like the OP is either.

Why don't you raise the question as to the value of compression testing for a well running engine on boatdiesel and see what those guys say?

Water in the fuel - good filters, good fill point "O" rings, buy from a good source, turn the tanks over, yada yada - never been a problem for me. not yet anyway. But if water is in an on-the-market boat's fuel tanks, the question is why was the owner negligent in fixing the problem or cleaning the fuel?

Smells- think mold too not just a bad head system.
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:00 PM   #65
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If GG goes ahead she clearly is going to be very dependent on professional help during the buying, transporting, and training phases of her boating learning curve.
Best advice is simple--- if you are really going to do this then find the very BEST professionals out there. You simply can not learn this stuff and have any hope of doing your own assessments etc. Better spend time interviewing the "help".
But realize that your lack of knowledge/experience will put you at their mercy!!
Hope you have deep pockets!!
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:06 PM   #66
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Maybe I can just take you along with me....
Thanks, I would like that, but if you think many of the folks here are over cautious, well my wife is the type that believes I will fall off the dock and drown unless someone, I guess a lifeguard, is watching me all the time.
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:12 PM   #67
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Greetings,
Mr. ww. Tell your dear wife to double your life insurance policy then she may not be so concerned...
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:26 PM   #68
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Greetings,
Mr. ww. Tell your dear wife to double your life insurance policy then she may not be so concerned...
The problem with that is I have a defined benefit for retirement and if I die she winds up with about a third of what we now get. That's probably part of the reason she is cautious. I think she loves me too.
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:53 PM   #69
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I'm lovin' that Romsdal. The GB 49 is cute too.
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:26 PM   #70
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Westwinds

We're speaking of boat buying here, not boat fixing. Words for a savvy buyer to be wary of that come to my mind are pristine, bristol or like new and then all the necessary repair stuff that you mention raises its head. Uh Uh.

I'm different than you, but when boat shopping unless things are in good working order and look right, I walk. Some look for solutions to problems they encounter or simpler said - "fixer upper" project boats. I'm not one and it doesn't sound like the OP is either.

Why don't you raise the question as to the value of compression testing for a well running engine on boatdiesel and see what those guys say?

Water in the fuel - good filters, good fill point "O" rings, buy from a good source, turn the tanks over, yada yada - never been a problem for me. not yet anyway. But if water is in an on-the-market boat's fuel tanks, the question is why was the owner negligent in fixing the problem or cleaning the fuel?

Smells- think mold too not just a bad head system.
There are minor and major problems when looking at a boat. A surveyor and mechanic should catch all of that. If the items are minor things that look major, then there is the likelyhood of making a good deal is better. That's what I was thinking about in above post; however, a person can fall in love with a boat and not do the work to find major expensive problems. Again, that is where the surveyor and mechanic are worth every penny. The problem is a boat can look great, but have major problems expensive to address.
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:35 PM   #71
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Here is a beginning list of things to check before starting on an ocean voyage. I did not include electronics as I posted that in another place. I know there is a lot more than this so feel free to add items:
Departure Checklist

Check bilge for unexpected fluids, and also check under engine.

Check stuffing box for excessive dripping, it should be about a drop of water per minute while the engine is running and transmission engaged.

If equipped with heat exchanger, engine coolant level and condition (rust)

Check oil level and also look for water or antifreeze in oil. Change oil and filter if past 100 hours since last change, could go 200 hours if continuous operation. Check owner’s manual for recommended hours between changes, it might vary. I would change at 50 hours if the engine gets little use.

Have sample of old engine oil sent in for analysis to check for metals indicating unexpected wear.

Check hoses, squeezed and no give, any cracks, or leaking, replace. Check that risers are clear of obstructions.

Belts for cracks underneath, if serpentine belt cracks are OK if no chunks missing.

Fuel filters, check gauges for pressure drop from dirty filters and glass bowls for water. Use a biocide

Check raw water impeller for cracks by pulling cover; replace every two years.

Check fuel for contamination by taking a sample off bottom of tank and by inspection of fuel filters. Do this each time you fuel, especially at a marina new to you. For clean diesel, you may have to use a product such as this: Fuel Right Canada

Check all through hulls for easy operation and ascertain if proper fitting for the application (no gate valves). Check hoses of cracks, are the hoses pliable, make sure hoses have double clamps for security.

Check raw water strainer.

Tag the ignition switch if someone is going into the water: “do not start!” Don wet or dry suit if needed and use an air line from a 12-volt compressor. This is called a hookah setup and is much less cumbersome than scuba tanks, or scuba tanks can be left on deck with nose to diver. Check raw water intakes for marine fouling especially for the engine, clean hull and propeller. Check propeller for damages as any roughness or distortion will have decrease efficiency considerably. Remove barnacles as even a few can adversely affect fuel consumption. Check cutless bearing for play by grabbing propeller and trying to move shaft from side to side. If the propeller needs to be pulled, do not use a slide hammer as this might damage the transmission. Use a propeller puller. You may want to take a spare propeller and puller with you on your voyages. Check rudder pivot points for slack. Check speed indicator paddle.

On steering cables, check sprocket or drum, cable sheaves, quadrant or tiller and turnbuckles for tensioning. You must have dedicated ports or panels for a proper inspection, else Murphy’s Law will apply and probably at the worst possible time. The cables take considerable loads over long periods of and run over the sheaves at the same place. Check emergency tiller. Note that considerable force may be necessary to use an emergency tiller. Two strong pad eyes and cleats through bolted to the hull and clearance to swing the emergency tiller are usually necessary.

White or blue smoke after warm up indicates a major engine problem; see compression check below.

Compression test, preferably leak down type where measured amount of air is introduced to the individual cylinders to see percent that leaks past rings and valves.

Is there sufficient cooling water out exhaust?

Listen for exhaust leaks in engine compartment. You can move your hand near the exhaust system and feel for the draft of exhaust escaping.

Check engine mounts for alignment and condition. Does engine rise up on one side as full power is applied. Do this while underway. Sometimes bad motor mounts will cause vibration approaching a given RPM; do not exceed this RPM until cause is determined. An engine mount has some give; engine should lift up on one side about half an inch or one centimeter as power is increased from idle to maximum RPM.

On engine with heat exchanger or keel cooler, coolant should be about 185 degrees Fahrenheit, 86 Celsius. If you cannot hold your hand on engine for more than a second, consider using an infrared temperature sensor on the engine. For direct seawater cooling, temperature should be about 140 degrees Fahrenheit, 60 Celsius.

Check oil level in transmission. Does it smell burned, if so replace and make sure transmission shifts crisply without slipping while engine is at idle.

If hydraulics are used for windlass or steering, check fluid levels, look for leaks around hydraulic cylinders, hoses and pumps.

Measure voltage at battery with engine running at fast idle. Should be about 14.2 volts at room temperature. Very cold will be higher and very hot, lower voltage.

The best battery check is to apply a discharge to each battery to see how long it will take to get the battery to its amp-hour rating. For instance if you have a 100 amp-hour battery and you discharge it for twenty hours at 5 amps, it has full capacity. Complete discharge is rather hard on a battery, as completely discharging every time the battery is discharged, will cut the life of a deep discharge battery in half vs. discharge to 50 percent.

Check batteries with hydrometer if equipped with caps. This is as good a check as complete discharge as above; otherwise, charge batteries, let stand overnight and test with sensitive voltmeter, which should read 12.65 volts with battery swithch in off position. Test each battery individually as good battery could pull defective battery up to its voltage. If water level is below plates on any cell, replace the battery, the cell will not take a charge. Bring water level up to plastic ring about half an inch below the top of the battery opening.

If the batteries are five years old or more, replace even if appear good by testing as above. Three years would be prudent if long trips are planned.

Check battery terminals at battery for corrosion, remove, sand clean battery post and inside battery cable terminal, or use special wire cleaning brush, and apply grease to prevent corrosion. The grease will squeeze out when terminals are tightened and you will have a good electrical connection that lasts for years. Wash hands carefully after servicing battery cables as lead is a major ingredient and is toxic if even a little is injuested. Also, battery acid is 32% surfuric acid, which is unconfortable if left on the hands and can easily eat holes in fabric, especially cotton.

Inspect wiring on boat for corrosion. Apply electrical loads and as a crude check, feel for hot spots at terminals; otherwise, use voltmeter on one volt range to check for voltage drop across terminals with loads applied to the circuit in question. Voltage drop should be less than 0.2 volts on terminals. Note that bad electrical wiring is a major cause of boat fires. I would check everything with a sensitive voltmeter.

Lifejackets, check condition and correct size for crew and guests.

Check battery dates on EPIRB (Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon)

Check battery dates on all electrical gear, GPS, hand held VHF, carbon monoxide, smoke detector,

Check dates on flares.

Check dates on fire extinguishers and the pressure gauges if so equipped.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:36 PM   #72
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I'd estimate two years. More if you'd like.
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:02 AM   #73
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Here is a website with links to personal trawler boat sites. There's a lot of good information here and possibly information on what time it takes to get from say China to the United States. Personal boat sites on Trawlers & Trawlering
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Old 03-02-2013, 05:53 PM   #74
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Here is a web site on fuel filtration that looks to me like something you should consider for reliable fuel on an ocean voyage: Marine Fuel Filtration - “The Seaboard Way”
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:21 AM   #75
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I would add to westwinds fine list to vaccum the entire bilge and every locker, at least twice.

Then blast as much water all thru the bilge to loosen gunk, junk, wood shavings (even on a non wood boat) .

I know of 2 boats that SANK because the multiple bilge pumps clogged with bilge waste , when the hull working or something poppped and water came in.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:54 AM   #76
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Galaxy Girl is a catfish. This board is getting catfished by one of your own.
NOT TRUE, CHECK THIS OUT:
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/wood-boats-scary-9131-new-post.html
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Old 03-04-2013, 10:54 AM   #77
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Greetings,
both their contributions have led to interesting discussions and comments.
Especially from wood boat owners and blue water cruisers who have been there done that. Now the test is to see what is purchased.

BTW, some owners can more easily spend big operating and maintenance dollars every year than can put forth lots of cash. Thus maintenance and labor intensive or high fuel annual use vessels become possible. Meaning one can have good cash flow but limited free or discretionary capital. Think annuities, IRAs, royalty checks, and insurance or lottery payouts.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:21 PM   #78
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San Diego to New York 5200 nm or 29 days under way - Speed 7.5 kn. 1500 nm fuel stops 4.5 gall per hour, 3100 gall of fuel

San Diego to Ensenada for check in and refuel - 1 day check in .
Ensenada to Acapulco first run - 2 days for check out and fuel
Acapulco to Flamenco Marina,Panama second run.
3-5 days to cross the Canal, oil change and refuel.
Cristobal signal to Fort Lauderdale third run and 2 days check in and refuel.
Lauderdale to New York last run.

40 days total
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:35 PM   #79
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That sure sounds like one ball buster delivery trip!!! The add the weather delays, Panama delays, mechanical problems and all the unknowns of a "new" old boat.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:25 PM   #80
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That sure sounds like one ball buster delivery trip!!! The add the weather delays, Panama delays, mechanical problems and all the unknowns of a "new" old boat.
Tihuantepec can be tricky,just hug the coast,Gulf of Papagayo is the same.
Panama Canal can be 3 days crossing if you call the agent in advance.
On East Coast they can use ICW but will double the run time.

The trip is long one but can be a LOTS OF FUN for the owner.
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