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Old 09-09-2010, 06:22 PM   #21
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Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

Eric--- Service intervals include oil and filter changes, but on the FL120 they also include injector pump oil changes, valve clearance adjustments, that sort of thing. The really critical one is the injector pump oil change which is supposed to be done every 50 hours. More modern engines, including the FL135, don't have this requirement as their injector pumps are lubed from the engine's own lube oil supply.

There are ways you can convert an FL120s injection pump to be lubed by the engine, but the only people I know who have done this have later converted them back, saying that the original, self-contained lube system does a better job of lubricating the pump's mechanical components than the engine feed system does. The pump oil is easy enough to change, but if you ignore this requirement you run the risk of shortening the pump's service life, and given the cost of replacing or rebuilding the pump, it's not something you want to have to pay for any sooner than you have to.

WOT for the FL120 is 2500 rpm.* I've never seen any loading figures for the FL120. There is a performance curve chart for the 4, 6, and 6Turbo engines in the operators manual but it just*compares horsepower to rpm.* Perhaps one can calculate loading information from that but I don't know how to do it.

The recommended rpm envelope for this engine is 1500 to 1800.* Almost everyone we know with an FL120 operates within this range.* We use about 1650-1700 depending on the mood the tachometers are in.* Operating in this*range (assuming a properly sized and pitched prop), along with following the recommended service and maintenance schedules, is said to yield a 12,000 to 14,000 hour engine in regular recreational service.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 9th of September 2010 09:00:17 PM
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Old 09-13-2010, 06:50 PM   #22
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

Charles -*Thanks for your most kind offer that I will definitely take you up on! I just took an initial look at your site, and believe I may just have some reading to do before I ask any specific questions. *For now, I am intrigued by the "boat size question". *My wife has strong feelings about the split fore-aft arrangement - I am OK w that, but liked the Europa sedan style quite a lot. **Be that as it may - we think it is reasonable to assume that we will have couples join us relatively frequently for legs of the trip that permit them to "fly in and out". Given the relative comfort level of two couples and a HUGE (85 lbs) dog, I was moving my target length up to the 42-45 ft. range.

However, lots of folks suggest keeping it small - I THINK I understand the KISS principle *- and rationally I understand. washing down, and other repetitive *chores become more labor intensive. *Yet, fundamentally, the systems between a 38Ft. or 45 ft. on initial reflection, do not appear to be that much different. Same number of engines, head(s), generator, etc. *I KNOW, by saying that I just reinforced my NEWBIE status, and make many of you experienced folks sigh and/or shake your head...


So (and feel free to defer, until I study your website), if you feel like it, comment on why in your case 45 Ft. was not necessary, and how a smaller boat would have impacted your voyaging experience. How did you come to pick the 45 ft. length - back then, were you thinking along my lines of thought? *I'll study the specs on your site - assume you had two engines - no thruster - which means today you'd value thruster over second engine?


Sorry - rambling again - but so very much appreciate all of everyone's *thoughts - they are so helpful in re-defining meaningful objectives .
Just so those who may be following this know: planning to own the boat for a couple of years before setting out on the Loop, allowing me to really study its systems, and to become minimally proficient in managing the more likely problems that we will encounter...


Thanks again !
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:15 PM   #23
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Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

Quote:
DutchProf wrote:

*
For now, I am intrigued by the "boat size question". *My wife has strong feelings about the split fore-aft arrangement - I am OK w that, but liked the Europa sedan style quite a lot. **Be that as it may - we think it is reasonable to assume that we will have couples join us relatively frequently for legs of the trip that permit them to "fly in and out". Given the relative comfort level of two couples and a HUGE (85 lbs) dog, I was moving my target length up to the 42-45 ft. range.

However, lots of folks suggest keeping it small






A Europa is a wonderful configuration for the PNW because with our near-constant drizzle and overcast, windy days, the covered and enclosable aft deck gives you a great place to be outside while not being outside.* So if your proposed boating area(s) tend toward rainy, windy weather, a Europa-type configuration (which can be had in a pilothouse boat like a Krogen, Fleming, etc. as well as a fly-bridge type boat like a Grand Banks) is superior, at least in my opinion.

A tri-cabin is great for having guests because you have the main cabin between you and them, and most tri-cabins include a second head up forward.* So if somebody wants to sleep in, the other party doesn't have to wait in their cabin before coming up to make coffee.

The mantra about buying the smallest boat you can afford does not imply that you should get a boat too small for your requirements.* If you determine that in order to accomdate you, your guests, your dog, and so on a 42 or 45-foot boat is what's needed, then get a 42 or 45-foot boat.* A boat that's too small will frustrate and disappoint you just as much as a boat that's too big.* But if a 42 foot boat will accomodate all your needs, it*may be smart not to buy a 50 foot boat just because you find one that you can afford.

An 85 pound dog is going to take more consideration than one might think in terms of boat configuration.* Unless you will always be going to docks you'll need to get the dog on and off the boat for shore visits.* Which means you'll have to get him in and out of the dinghy or shoreboat.* A step-down aft cockpit (like on the back of all but the last batch of GB46s) with a transom door makes this a whole lot easier than lifting the dog off the deck, lowering him to the swimstep, and then reversing the procedure when you come back.* Some people have devised ramps that can be attached to the stern of the boat to let the dog get down to dinghy level on is own.* But however you deal with it, you'll have to deal with it.

Does the dog like to sleep with or near you?* If he does, how will he be at negotiating the usually very steep companionway steps to a forward or aft cabin?* Dogs can destroy a nice finish job on steps or a cabin sole in short order if they slip on the way up, to say nothing of injuring themselves.* Even though our dogs have always been able to get up and down into the aft cabin on their own we now lift them both ways because years of jumping down the steps into the cabin contributed to a severe back injury to one of our dogs.

We have*taken a dog with us on the GB every time we've gone out.* For two years we had two dogs, an old one and a puppy, on board.* Now we're back to one.* All our dogs over the years have been the same breed, with average adult weights*between 40 and 50 pounds.* We can lift these dogs over the stern*caprail and lower them to the swimstep to get in the dinghy, and we can lift them back up to the main deck.* They are water dogs and have quickly*learned to deal with getting in and out of*a pitching, rocking dinghy on their own.** But we wouldn't want or be able to* lift them between the deck and the swimstep if they were any larger.

So I would put more emphasis on how you're going to make boat life easier for the dog than a lot of people might be inclined to do.* Dogs are wonderful boating companions-- ours have added an incalculable amount of*enjoyment to our boating experience--- but they have needs that have to be accomodated.* And the bigger the dog, the more challenging it can be to accomodate them.* So don't forget about the dog as you're oohing and ahhing over the various boats you check out.

The photo is when we had two dogs on board--- this was one of their favorite "underway" positions until the puppy outgrew it.

-- Edited by Marin on Monday 13th of September 2010 08:39:04 PM
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:43 PM   #24
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

Marin:

"Does the dog like to sleep with or near you? "

you are kidding, right?
Dogs aboard sleep in their kennel.
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:51 PM   #25
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

Dogs vs. people: I was raised on a small farm in the city. People come first...dogs sleep where you let them and eat what you feed them. Take care of them for sure, but you don't run your life around them! Same with other critters.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:45 PM   #26
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

Quote:
Keith wrote:Take care of them for sure, but you don't run your life around them! Same with other critters.
If that works for you that's fine.* But I think you'll find there are a hell of a lot of dog owners out there who probably give their dogs a higher status than they would give*you (or me).

Stayed on a mountain*sheep farm in the Lake District of the UK back in the early 90s.* Farmer was probably 75 or 80 (so younger than you but still pretty old* ) and had been a sheep farmer his whole life and was a pretty tough character.* He had four working Border Collies.* If there was anyone I've ever met who I'd have thought would have*adhered to your "leave 'em be" philosophy it was him.*

But he and his wife let the Border Collies sleep on their bed with them and they treated them like family members.* I went out in the hills*with this guy a few times to watch him and his dogs work the sheep and those four dogs worked their as*ses off for him non-stop for hours at a time.* I asked him later if many of the farmers treated their working dogs like house pets and he said, "Dont' know.* But we like having*'em around."* And that was the end of the discussion.
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:51 PM   #27
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

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Dogs aboard sleep in their kennel.
I'm thinking you don't know many boaters with dogs

*
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Old 09-14-2010, 04:52 PM   #28
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

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Keith wrote:Take care of them for sure, but you don't run your life around them! Same with other critters.
If that works for you that's fine.* But I think you'll find there are a hell of a lot of dog owners out there who probably give their dogs a higher status than they would give*you (or me).

Stayed on a mountain*sheep farm in the Lake District of the UK back in the early 90s.* Farmer was probably 75 or 80 (so younger than you but still pretty old* ) and had been a sheep farmer his whole life and was a pretty tough character.* He had four working Border Collies.* If there was anyone I've ever met who I'd have thought would have*adhered to your "leave 'em be" philosophy it was him.*

But he and his wife let the Border Collies sleep on their bed with them and they treated them like family members.* I went out in the hills*with this guy a few times to watch him and his dogs work the sheep and those four dogs worked their as*ses off for him non-stop for hours at a time.* I asked him later if many of the farmers treated their working dogs like house pets and he said, "Dont' know.* But we like having*'em around."* And that was the end of the discussion.
Sure marin, but what about the sheep?

*
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Old 09-14-2010, 05:55 PM   #29
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

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Sure marin, but what about the sheep?



I think they slept in the kitchen next to the stove.

*
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:08 PM   #30
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

Ha! So many that we have debated changing the name of our club from "Yacht club" to "Dog Club"

Too bad for many, their dogs have status that they shouldn't have, don't obey, are noisy when they should be quiet, underfoot when they should give you space, etc. Reflects ignorance or laziness in the owners, not caring enough for the dog to train it properly, not respecting the non-dog people around to train their dogs to behave properly and not be bothersome.

Ours is trained and sleeps in his kennel. Only goes on the furniture whien invited up, doesn't make noise except to greet people he is excited to see again. Took a lot of work, but the rewards are there.

Still named Pan Pan though.
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:27 PM   #31
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

As far as the dog thing goes, our dogs all mean different things to us and we all treat them differently. I don't think there is any one way that is better than the other.

NOW!!!!

This has been a great thread. LET'S KEEP ON TOPIC!!!!
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Old 09-14-2010, 10:19 PM   #32
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

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This has been a great thread. LET'S KEEP ON TOPIC!!!!
Taking up the John Baker challenge, I have a question that could apply to choosing a Loop boat.* As I understand it there are locks that need to negotiated on this route.* I'm very familiar with the manually-operated,*narrow,*74 foot by 7 foot locks in the canals in the UK but I've not seen locks in the US except for one electric set in the New York State Barge Canal when I was in that*part of the state for work back in the '80s.

So my question is---- does going through locks pose any challenges that tend to favor one boat configuration over another?* For instance, are full*walk-around decks a major benefit when working through these locks?

*
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Old 09-15-2010, 01:23 PM   #33
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

Marin, I would think a boat with full walk around decks would be better than not having them. I would assume you could figure a way to do without but having them would surely be better. My only lock experience has been on the GCICW. We lock across rivers down here. Some locks really aren't "locks" but "Sal****er gates" to prevent sal****er from flooding the lowlands.

Anyway, we all know all boats are a compromise. If you want a "widebody" then you are gonna pay the price in line handling...locks or not. And most people don't realize, but you pay a similar price for a sundeck. The aft cleat on a sundeck can be a major pain in the butt....especially if you have those "leeboard" thingies or whatever you call those panels that block the weather. You have to maneuver the line from above the railing outside around the boat to the aft cleat. Not a great big deal but it is a "threat" and does require a strategy and even the briefing of unfamiliar crew.
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Old 09-15-2010, 05:44 PM   #34
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

I LOVE my walk around decks on the Krogen in locks. Makes things safe and easy. The dogs can also follow me around without problem.
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:13 PM   #35
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

Having learned to sail at a very young age in the Netherlands, and after regularly locking through mammoth locks (on sloops and cutters) between the Dutch rivers and the Zeeland delta in the presence of many of the "big boys", I assure you I would not embark on the Loop with its roughly 150 or so locks, without walk around decks. The larger locks on the Mississippi - Lock 26 here at Alton IL being the largest, if I am not mistaken - have only reinforced that position. Sooner or later, a line will drop short of its target - and rapid fore-aft mobility is precious. Toss in some backwash from a large push boat, and things can get hairy very quickly.

Soo... I want walk around decks, a LOW cockpit w a transom door with minimal elevation from the swim platform (for the dog, and for our rapidly aging legs), and a fore-aft cabin arrangement w 2 heads; Then enough space for at least one - preferably two comfortable chairs. It's fine if there are a couple of steps from the low cockpit to the higher side decks, I want doors on port and starboard into the pilothouse, and if I could get a small Portuguese bridge that would give me a "front yard" (might be nice for the dog, but is obviously not essential). My current challenge is to find that in as small of a boat as possible...
Albin 46 North Sea Cutter comes pretty close - DeFever 42, does not really meets the specs... Monk cockpit seems to be pretty high - Any others I have overlooked?

I started this thread because I struggled to find what I thought was looking for - in the process I have been the beneficiary of many comments that made me "go back to school", and since the thread was reactivated, also of many great thoughts, that have further expanded my horizons. Also, and more importantly, I have gotten to know new folks who share some of my passions for the water!
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:53 PM   #36
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

Quote:
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I LOVE my walk around decks on the Krogen in locks. Makes things safe and easy.
Keith--- What is your opinon of the Krogen wide-body model?* We've been on one of them (at the dock) and while we were very impressed with the boat we had mixed feelings about the lack of a complete main deck on the port side.* Obviously you can easily get to the forward and aft decks, but we wondered if the lack of a main side deck would pose a probem.

*
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:01 PM   #37
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

Hiya,
** Again, it all boils down to what do you want to do with the boat?* Is 3'X20' interior space more of an advantage to you than walk around decks*or twice that for full width salon?
** Personally, living in a boat as compared to dirt digs what's another 120 sq.'*(10x20-OK big room) less interior room when you can run laps outside?-one room-so what ?
** Sundecks?* If you can deal with the side stairs and the increaed difficulty of "lining" traded off with the increased size of a room you should only be in no more than 7+/- hrs per day (unless newleweds), go for it, but you trade off lounge space and the side decks.*
** You're call.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:21 PM   #38
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

Dutchprof, some odd boats that come up in my search that may fit your criteria....

The Pearson 43. *It has what you are looking for in a sedan configuration. *IOW, there is an aft cabin the moment you step in from the cockpit. *If you can live with that, it appears to have a fine galley and a good amount of space in the salon. *It is not particularly handsome....


http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985.../United-States


Also, the Roughwater 41. *A Monk design. *I have always been a big fan of these. *You have your cockpit with transom door. *Pilothouse. *A nice galley and salon and fore and aft cabins. *And single engine to boot!!! *The only issue is that they are all on the West Coast. *Since there is no flybridge per se, it might be relatively easy to ship...but I don't know. *If you found a really nice one(and they ALL appear to be well taken care of), it might be worth your hassle and expense.


http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=1634&url=
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Old 09-17-2010, 06:16 AM   #39
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RE: Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

John: Thanks for those url's.
I had stumbled onto the Pearson 43 a few months ago - and it does come close to the "family w dog & guests" specs: Powerboat 2010 says the following: Houseboat style cruiser originally built in 1971-76 (Called the 43 Portshouth) was reintroduced in 1984 when Pearson decided to get back into powerboat market. Designed for inland, coastal waters, flat bottom hull has very low freeboard........Lowdeck freeboard make this boat unsuitable for offshore use....
The question then becomes to what extent safety might be compromised by hull design on the more challenging legs, such as the Great Lakes...?
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Old 09-17-2010, 09:37 AM   #40
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Searching for the 'Perfect' Loop Boat...

Okay, the Pearson may not be the best choice.

I am editing now......The hullshape does not look bad at all. *The only issue would be the low freeboard as you go aft. *I wonder how hard it would be to carry the gun'l all the way aft. *This would not be structural but just to keep the green water off the deck. *It would also likely add to the aesthetics of the boat. *Anyway, just thinking out loud. *You asked about a loop boat.....that looks like it could be a good one.


-- Edited by Baker on Friday 17th of September 2010 09:42:30 AM
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