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Old 10-26-2013, 11:46 AM   #21
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In Florida as well as many southern states, there is NO duty to notify. I will not notify unless asked. Either it's legal or it is not.
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Old 10-26-2013, 11:50 AM   #22
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I'm so glad I left that crazy state- the libs are taking over more and more....
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California accepts no other state's CCW. One can't even open-carry a loaded or unloaded weapon in public. Very few sheriffs will issue a CCW to an ordinary citizen.
Hey guys...Tom politely asked earlier that we not go here.........I'm just saying...
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Old 10-26-2013, 11:59 AM   #23
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In Florida as well as many southern states, there is NO duty to notify. I will not notify unless asked. Either it's legal or it is not.
While it's true that there is NO duty to notify in many states...without exception every officer I know...and I know many...absolutely prefers to be notified...notifying will generally make interactions less "tense"...being legal and within your rights will be little consolation if things go poorly...but as with most things this is a personal decision...I just know what I've been told and what has worked well for me in the past...
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:07 PM   #24
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I know we have some active duty cops and retired cops on here. They are eligible to apply for a National Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act card that allows them to carry concealed in all states. It's worth checking out if you are in those categories.
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Old 10-26-2013, 02:37 PM   #25
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If I may interject again...

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Originally Posted by Irdiverdan View Post
While it's true that there is NO duty to notify in many states...without exception every officer I know...and I know many...absolutely prefers to be notified...notifying will generally make interactions less "tense"...being legal and within your rights will be little consolation if things go poorly...but as with most things this is a personal decision...I just know what I've been told and what has worked well for me in the past...
I have to agree here.

You have to understand that while there is no obligation to inform, if we're in contact with you for whatever reason, and a firearm (or the profile) is observed, we are understandably going to react differently than if you just said up front, hey officer, I have a permit and am carrying.

It's just a courtesy. It eases a potentially tense situation, and there's never a mistake regarding what you were reaching for.
If you don't tell me that you're carrying lawfully, and I see it or find it say on an officer safety pat down, it opens up doors for so many more questions and concerns. If the officer happens to see you reach for something that happens to be in the general vicinity of the weapon, and sees the weapon or it's profile at the same time, I can assure you there are going to be issues

In retrospect, I can't remember how many people on traffic stops and other contacts over the years, have given me the courtesy of informing me of their lawful carry, to which I simply responded "thank you", and went on about my business. In the back of my mind, I know that at least at the time of issuance, they were not convicted felons. And the fact is, I've never been harmed or threatened with a firearm, by a lawfully permitted citizen

I will say that on occasion, that courtesy notification as well as the persons demeanor, has caused me to change my mind on writing a ticket vs. a warning.


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I know we have some active duty cops and retired cops on here. They are eligible to apply for a National Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act card that allows them to carry concealed in all states. It's worth checking out if you are in those categories.
That is HR218, which has been modified several time since it's inception under the Bush administration in 2004. It's the one I referred to in my first response.

It can now be found under 18 USC 926B and C (for active and retired LEO's respectively) (Public Law 111-272), and HR 4310 "The National Defense Authorization Act" (Public Law 112-239.

The link below should help anyone who feels they may qualify or have questions regarding it's applicability and restrictions.
http://www.fop.net/legislative/issue...8/hr218faq.pdf

It gives a bit more latitude than a state license, is significantly less expensive, and is quicker to obtain in most case, at least in Florida where it takes the geniuses in Tallahassee 2 months to get it done
Instead, it took me 30 minutes to qualify and obtain the 218 certification card.

The 218 certification, if I did my research correctly, also doesn't carry some of the restrictions normally found in State law, such as the prohibition against concealed carry into a "nuisance" establishment, or one that receives over 50% of it's income from the sale of alcohol. Under Florida law, that would be a for a CCW holder.

That said, common sense has to prevail.
On the few occasions that I've entered a restaurant, and ended up at the bar (not generally my style), I have gone back to my vehicle and disarmed.

God forbid, something happens and I end up in a deadly force situation, I don't want to do so with a BAC of anything, and I certainly don't want to have a BAC, miss, and injure a bystander. Criminal statutes aside, the resulting civil suit, and I will assure you there will be a civil suit, will be at the very least, uncomfortable. No reason to place ones self in that position to begin with.

Finally, most agencies around here, have prohibitions against their officers, active or reserve, carrying off duty into bars and other venues as those described above. I figure that if I follow suit I should be ok.

Sorry for the long post.
I'll try to be more brief in the future.

OD
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Old 10-26-2013, 03:55 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Irdiverdan View Post

While it's true that there is NO duty to notify in many states...without exception every officer I know...and I know many...absolutely prefers to be notified...notifying will generally make interactions less "tense"...being legal and within your rights will be little consolation if things go poorly...but as with most things this is a personal decision...I just know what I've been told and what has worked well for me in the past...
With respect diverdan, It doesn't matter what the officer prefers.
If asked, I will reply honestly. If not asked, I won't volunteer. It's immaterial.
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Old 10-26-2013, 04:01 PM   #27
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If I may interject again...

I have to agree here.

You have to understand that while there is no obligation to inform, if we're in contact with you for whatever reason, and a firearm (or the profile) is observed, we are understandably going to react differently than if you just said up front, hey officer, I have a permit and am carrying.

It's just a courtesy. It eases a potentially tense situation, and there's never a mistake regarding what you were reaching for.
If you don't tell me that you're carrying lawfully, and I see it or find it say on an officer safety pat down, it opens up doors for so many more questions and concerns. If the officer happens to see you reach for something that happens to be in the general vicinity of the weapon, and sees the weapon or it's profile at the same time, I can assure you there are going to be issues

In retrospect, I can't remember how many people on traffic stops and other contacts over the years, have given me the courtesy of informing me of their lawful carry, to which I simply responded "thank you", and went on about my business. In the back of my mind, I know that at least at the time of issuance, they were not convicted felons. And the fact is, I've never been harmed or threatened with a firearm, by a lawfully permitted citizen

I will say that on occasion, that courtesy notification as well as the persons demeanor, has caused me to change my mind on writing a ticket vs. a warning.

That is HR218, which has been modified several time since it's inception under the Bush administration in 2004. It's the one I referred to in my first response.

It can now be found under 18 USC 926B and C (for active and retired LEO's respectively) (Public Law 111-272), and HR 4310 "The National Defense Authorization Act" (Public Law 112-239.

The link below should help anyone who feels they may qualify or have questions regarding it's applicability and restrictions.
http://www.fop.net/legislative/issue...8/hr218faq.pdf

It gives a bit more latitude than a state license, is significantly less expensive, and is quicker to obtain in most case, at least in Florida where it takes the geniuses in Tallahassee 2 months to get it done
Instead, it took me 30 minutes to qualify and obtain the 218 certification card.

The 218 certification, if I did my research correctly, also doesn't carry some of the restrictions normally found in State law, such as the prohibition against concealed carry into a "nuisance" establishment, or one that receives over 50% of it's income from the sale of alcohol. Under Florida law, that would be a for a CCW holder.

That said, common sense has to prevail.
On the few occasions that I've entered a restaurant, and ended up at the bar (not generally my style), I have gone back to my vehicle and disarmed.

God forbid, something happens and I end up in a deadly force situation, I don't want to do so with a BAC of anything, and I certainly don't want to have a BAC, miss, and injure a bystander. Criminal statutes aside, the resulting civil suit, and I will assure you there will be a civil suit, will be at the very least, uncomfortable. No reason to place ones self in that position to begin with.

Finally, most agencies around here, have prohibitions against their officers, active or reserve, carrying off duty into bars and other venues as those described above. I figure that if I follow suit I should be ok.

Sorry for the long post.
I'll try to be more brief in the future.

OD
Off duty, so if I am carrying legally and I am stopped with no duty to notify the stopping officer, why would the outcome be any different? If I am carrying a weapon and its legal to be on my person by permit and the law states I have no duty to inform, how exactly is it that you would react differently? I'm law abiding, have no intention of harming anyone and am legal.

If my weapon is in my glove box and my insurance and registration is collocated, I of course would notify the officer I have a weapon in the glove box.

If it is on my person and I am legal, the officer should never know if I have no duty to inform. Are body searches normal routine for traffic stops or boat stops?

"safety pat downs"? Why? What probable cause is observed to merit that? Most CCW permit holders ARE law abiding. Why make them non supporters of LEO by questionable action?
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Old 10-26-2013, 04:52 PM   #28
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Off duty, so if I am carrying legally and I am stopped with no duty to notify the stopping officer, why would the outcome be any different? If I am carrying a weapon and its legal to be on my person by permit and the law states I have no duty to inform, how exactly is it that you would react differently? I'm law abiding, have no intention of harming anyone and am legal.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that one "must" inform an officer when they're lawfully carrying concealed. Only that it's never a bad idea.

Now, my stock answer to the last part is, I failed mind reading in the police academy. I have no way of knowing what your intentions are.

For the other part, for brevities sake, I would ask you to re-read my response. There are a lot of "ifs" in there.

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If my weapon is in my glove box and my insurance and registration is collocated, I of course would notify the officer I have a weapon in the glove box.
Of course I agree with you. Common sense and decency prevail

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If it is on my person and I am legal, the officer should never know if I have no duty to inform. Are body searches normal routine for traffic stops or boat stops?
Interestingly, other than a motorcycle rider, car and boat stops differ in that you can usually see the entire body of the person you are dealing with on a vessel stop, verses an automobile where most of the driver/passenger are concealed from view.

"Body searches" are neither common nor used in normal traffic stops. Such a search is conducted pursuant to an arrest or at the execution of a search or arrest warrant.

Quote:
"safety pat downs"? Why? What probable cause is observed to merit that? Most CCW permit holders ARE law abiding. Why make them non supporters of LEO by questionable action?
"Pat downs" or what is commonly referred to as a "Terry Frisk" (Terry v. Ohio) is done where either probable cause is present that the individual may be armed, or for officer safety depending on the circumstances.

There is less of a burden to establish "probable cause" for a pat down for officer safety. Depending on a variety of factors, such as time of day, location, reason for the stop, violator actions, etc., one may find themselves subject to a terry frisk for the safety of the officer. Unfortunately, we've had a pretty bad run of luck with officer attacks and shootings the past few years As such, it's taking less and less for officers to frisk, and more and more officers are starting to become more aware.

As you mentioned though, in a motor vehicle, unless you're carrying in a shoulder holster, or it is revealed when say, you bend over to get your registration from the glove box, then more than likely the officer is never going to know your packing

If it's a simple traffic stop, where you're not going to be exiting your vehicle, and the possibility of suddenly exhibiting your weapon to the officer as you, maybe reach for your license, then it's your call.

I still tell them just to make sure we don't have any "mistakes."
If I am going to be outside the car, I'd definitely tell them.
Damaged pride hurts.
Bullet holes hurt like holy hell!!

In the end my friend, it's really up to you.

All the best.

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Old 10-26-2013, 05:05 PM   #29
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So it would follow that the NRA sticker on a car would give a LEO "probable cause"..? I suppose my Veteran status on my drivers license also could make the leap for probable cause if I am armed?

Here is a thought: how about actual application of the law?

If I am stopped for a routine traffic stop and the state I am stopped in doesn't require notification, then I expect the stopping officer to follow the law as required. If the voters and law makers wanted a mandatory notification it would have been in the law.

If I am forced out of my vehicle and I am carrying, I would inform the officer at this point that I was infact carrying but this officer also needs to make damn sure he has probable cause.

I want to support law enforcement and as long as they are applying the law I will. I also know and have seen much abuse of power and authority.
Citizens that obey the law have a right to also make it home. No matter how they come into "contact" with LEO.
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Old 10-26-2013, 05:29 PM   #30
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For the Original Poster, this exchange demonstrates the varying attitude you will get from Law Enforcement and other Boaters.

In the end, it's all a question of you knowing the laws and know them well.

It doesn't hurt to have an attorney on speed dial.
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Old 10-26-2013, 05:37 PM   #31
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So it would follow that the NRA sticker on a car would give a LEO "probable cause"..? I suppose my Veteran status on my drivers license also could make the leap for probable cause if I am armed?
No more than the NRA, "Terrorist hunting permit", and military service stickers on my truck would. Probable cause is probable cause. The rest is just "probable guess"

Quote:
Here is a thought: how about actual application of the law?
Cool thought. As it should be

Quote:
If I am stopped for a routine traffic stop and the state I am stopped in doesn't require notification, then I expect the stopping officer to follow the law as required. If the voters and law makers wanted a mandatory notification it would have been in the law.
First, just to be clear, there are no "routine" traffic stops. Had too many friends and associated KIA in "routine" stops.

Law and officer safety are different things.
Whether you chose to notify them, as I stated previously, is your decision.

Quote:
If I am forced out of my vehicle and I am carrying, I would inform the officer at this point that I was infact carrying but this officer also needs to make damn sure he has probable cause.
PC for what?
If it reaches a point where you are "forced" out of your vehicle, I would think that notification is the least of your problems.

Quote:
I want to support law enforcement and as long as they are applying the law I will. I also know and have seen much abuse of power and authority.
Citizens that obey the law have a right to also make it home. No matter how they come into "contact" with LEO.
First, I'm a newbie here, and only trying to help with some knowledge gained over 30 years in LE, 12 years in the USCG, and 21 years in the private sector. I certainly don't wish to alienate anyone, nor do I need to make enemies.

I also don't walk lockstep with anyone, be it the NRA, law enforcement, or the government. I think and act for myself, hopefully based on common sense and decency, and the applicable laws.

This whole "do I disclose" thing is really a moot issue. It's something you will have to sort out if/when the time arises. It's a personal thing for each of us. I look at it from a legal, procedural and officer safety standpoint, as well as a civil rights aspect.

If you went to any of the other websites I'm on, you'd see that by my posts

I'm really here to learn about trawlers and motorsailer's
As a trainer, guns, and legal crap are just a few things that I've done all my life, and know a little something about. I just try to help out with some information, that's all.

Nothing personal.

Safe travels,

OD
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:22 PM   #32
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Off Duty, we're good. Pretty thick skins here. Appreciate the insight from the blue light side.

Cheers.
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:29 PM   #33
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:36 PM   #34
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Personally I have a FL CWP. If I am stopped in my boat by a LEO or the
Coasties, I'm going to tell them where my weapon is whether they ask or not. I'm a law abiding citizen and still think LEO's are on our side. I'm not interesting in testing my rights in court.
The only reason I would transport a weapon in my car is to or from the boat or the gun range. In that case it will be in the trunk under lock and key and if I'm stopped that info will be relayed immediately to the LEO.
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Old 10-26-2013, 06:51 PM   #35
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Absolutley patently untrue.

Better check you facts there regarding CCW's. Your other statement regarding reciprocal rights is true.

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California accepts no other state's CCW. One can't even open-carry a loaded or unloaded weapon in public. Very few sheriffs will issue a CCW to an ordinary citizen.
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Old 10-26-2013, 07:52 PM   #36
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Jim, you live in El Dorado County...Mark lives in Contra Costa County. Big difference in Sheriff attitude and opinion on 2nd amendment. Open-carry rights (loaded or unloaded) are nonexistent in California.
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Old 10-26-2013, 08:59 PM   #37
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This is a little known law in South Carolina, in other words, get a SC fishing license and keep a fishing rod on board and you can open carry. If stopped, all you have to say is you are going fishing. No CWP needed!

SECTION 16-23-20. Unlawful carrying of handgun; exceptions.
(4) licensed hunters or fishermen who are engaged in hunting or fishing or going to or from their places of hunting or fishing while in a vehicle or on foot;
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Old 10-26-2013, 09:08 PM   #38
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Sounds reasonable although overly restrictive.
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Old 10-26-2013, 09:28 PM   #39
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Well then

Posters should not make blanket statements that involve the entire state.
I am in the State of Jefferson mind set.
We pay to Sac but get very little in return.
And Liberals make me ill.

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Jim, you live in El Dorado County...Mark lives in Contra Costa County. Big difference in Sheriff attitude and opinion on 2nd amendment. Open-carry rights (loaded or unloaded) are nonexistent in California.
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:51 PM   #40
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Well, Albin43... You have some answers to you original post. You have some good responses from Off Duty and others. It appears that you can keep lethal force on the boat but must abide by the laws of individual states when off the boat. Be up front with the Coast Guard and you'll be treated right, hopefully!

Tom, it went pretty well for a gun discussion. I mean we did make it to the third page without too many flames!
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