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Old 09-03-2014, 02:12 PM   #1121
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Originally Posted by Wxx3 View Post
Actually, I was hoping the message I was getting across was to know less meteorology and more houw your boat handles in every condition.

I think I need to do a dedicated post about wx.
Hi Richard,

Welcome to Ireland!

Congratulations on your epic voyage across the Atlantic; as you probably know many Irishmen went in the other direction over to the States. My very own Grandmother travelled in the same direction as a you and came to live in Ireland from Long Island NY.

I am located 150 north of your landfall, on the river Shannon; 'a must see' for an inland cruise after you have explored the beautiful south coast, with no waves to poop you!

Enjoy your stay.

Best wishes,
Peter.
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Old 09-03-2014, 02:37 PM   #1122
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Doesn't matter which you learn first, but in the long run on ocean crossing the storm tactics and ability to handle rough conditions may well be more important than any weather books. Richard is a trained meteorologist and one of the lessons he says from the trip is the limits of weather forecasting.
You failed to understand my point.

The Dashew storm tactics book discusses the weather and how it impacted the boats in question. While the authors try to explain the weather that is not their real focus of their storm tactics book. They have another book that discusses weather. Having a bit of weather knowledge about lows, highs and how to read weather charts helps one understand the situation of the boats discussed by the Dashews. Knowing how and why the boats got into trouble depends on understanding the weather. It would be easier to understand the storm tactics book if one has a bit of basic weather knowledge.

Thus the recommendation to read the weather books first then the storm tactics books.

Later,
Dan
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Old 09-03-2014, 03:01 PM   #1123
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You failed to understand my point.

The Dashew storm tactics book discusses the weather and how it impacted the boats in question. While the authors try to explain the weather that is not their real focus of their storm tactics book. They have another book that discusses weather. Having a bit of weather knowledge about lows, highs and how to read weather charts helps one understand the situation of the boats discussed by the Dashews. Knowing how and why the boats got into trouble depends on understanding the weather. It would be easier to understand the storm tactics book if one has a bit of basic weather knowledge.

Thus the recommendation to read the weather books first then the storm tactics books.

Later,
Dan
I understand your point and don't disagree over order. Just stating that understanding how to handle the weather may ultimately be more important than understanding how to forecast it. And agree with you that understanding the weather may contribute to understanding how to handle it.

Now, we've taken a five day course in basic meteorology but haven't taken the advanced course yet, also five days.

We're USCG but MCA has an interesting course and requirement of "Seamanship and Meteorology" combining the subject.

Their is also a course that we may one day take, "Advanced Ship Handling." It uses a simulation facility and is a ten day course. Much more expensive than their normal courses. However, simulating emergencies and heavy weather could be very interesting.

Ultimately we depend on those who forecast full time as a profession but we now understand the whys and wherefores better. Also we see the disagreements and the times everyone ends up wrong. In subscribing to weather services it's amazing to see the times they totally disagree or the times they agree but end up wrong. I wanted to understand weather but no desire to try to forecast myself.
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Old 09-04-2014, 06:03 AM   #1124
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Doesn't matter which you learn first, but in the long run on ocean crossing the storm tactics and ability ....

On thing Nordhavn required before the rally was that all participants do at least a 600 mile run offshore or crossing before they could enter.
Wonderful quote, well said and I agree with all of it. Now, that's different.

A few points that this brings to mind:

Spring 2013, we had just gotten boat, need to bring it north.
Mostly, ICW, every day, I left no matter the Weather. How bad vodka it be on the ICW?
In one three day period, saw one sheriff boat. It was rain, 40kts wind, but it was the ICW. The sounds I crossed had 4 to 6' waves.
My point, if you only go out in good weather, you will never be ready for bad.

In stormy conditions, my boat is SLOWER THAN A comparable sailboat. In a big wind, they may get up to 12, 14kts, I slow down, so I'll be going 5.

The lesson I learned, is not that wx Fcst are not that good, I knew that, it's that our boat is so slow, there is pretty much nothing you can do to mitigate it.
Don't waste time about weather, use your time to figure out how your boat handles in every situation.

I was afraid to lie a hull. I ended up doing it twice. I should have known beforehand that I wasn't going to die.
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Old 09-04-2014, 09:00 AM   #1125
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Wonderful quote, well said and I agree with all of it. Now, that's different.

A few points that this brings to mind:

Spring 2013, we had just gotten boat, need to bring it north.
Mostly, ICW, every day, I left no matter the Weather. How bad vodka it be on the ICW?
In one three day period, saw one sheriff boat. It was rain, 40kts wind, but it was the ICW. The sounds I crossed had 4 to 6' waves.
My point, if you only go out in good weather, you will never be ready for bad.

In stormy conditions, my boat is SLOWER THAN A comparable sailboat. In a big wind, they may get up to 12, 14kts, I slow down, so I'll be going 5.

The lesson I learned, is not that wx Fcst are not that good, I knew that, it's that our boat is so slow, there is pretty much nothing you can do to mitigate it.
Don't waste time about weather, use your time to figure out how your boat handles in every situation.

I was afraid to lie a hull. I ended up doing it twice. I should have known beforehand that I wasn't going to die.
Key points here...

True...what you are IN is way more important than what the forecast is....I found both in going to sea and flying over it for decades...sometimes it's more important to know what you are NOT going to be in than exactly what you are going to be in. Meaning if things are going downhill, is there ANY chance that the forecasts will be correct and there will be a weak spot in the weather that you CAN take advantage of. The most simplistic examples are getting out of a conflicting current to the wind, being in a lee, dodging thunderstorms by local or distant radar, etc.

And as you point out....ultimately....the boat you are one is the ne you need to know like the back of your hand once the conditions go from bad to survival. But hopefully with even bad forecasting and the tactic of avoiding the worst, you only see bad and never survival conditions. many lose their boats in bad conditions because they weren't even prepared for them...something breaks loose or breaks down and the sea wins long before it should. So I am happy that even with your issues ....that between them and your weather estimating...you are there safe.
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Old 09-04-2014, 10:46 AM   #1126
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My point, if you only go out in good weather, you will never be ready for bad.

While it's good to know how your boat will handle heavy weather, it's of course not just the only factor that should be taken into account. It's pretty much a given that the boat can handle more weather and handle it longer than the human can.

So the problem becomes that bad weather can be the tipping point for the first domino in the down hill cascade to a very bad situation.

All it takes is one wrong step at the wrong time and someone is lying out cold on the deck or floor with a concision or a broken body part. Or a sudden and significant mechanical issue arises. Bad enough on a boat with crew. But potentially tragic for some one single handing it.

Mitigating the chances of that first domino falling by picking your weather is a wise thing. Going out into bad conditions for no good reason other than because you got away with it before, not so much. And could be said to be creating what might be call the "illusion of experience". Just look at the captain of the Bounty.

Traveling in bad weather is not just about the weather and how your boat will handle it. It's about the potential over all consequences of that decision.
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:21 PM   #1127
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All it takes is one wrong step at the wrong time and someone is lying out cold on the deck or floor with a concision or a broken body part. Or a sudden and significant mechanical issue arises. Bad enough on a boat with crew. But potentially tragic for some one single handing it.
Capt Bill. So on target and that's where my risk tolerance is considerably less than Richard's. One slip when trying to deal with the Paravane. Even a terrible case of seasickness has been known to incapacitate one.

I think I am tough but the reality is there are things I've never experienced to know. I don't know how well I would be able to continue after a horrific fall and an injured back. As much as I applaud what Richard's accomplishment, I will never be on board with single handing in those conditions, power or sail. If incapacitation is a 1% risk in single handing then doubling reduces the risk of incapacitation of the entire crew to something close to 1 in 10,000.
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Old 09-05-2014, 03:58 PM   #1128
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Capt Bill. So on target and that's where my risk tolerance is considerably less than Richard's. One slip when trying to deal with the Paravane. Even a terrible case of seasickness has been known to incapacitate one.

I think I am tough but the reality is there are things I've never experienced to know. I don't know how well I would be able to continue after a horrific fall and an injured back. As much as I applaud what Richard's accomplishment, I will never be on board with single handing in those conditions, power or sail. If incapacitation is a 1% risk in single handing then doubling reduces the risk of incapacitation of the entire crew to something close to 1 in 10,000.
Interesting.

I'm working on my conclusions and lessons learned.

One thing I have learned, is that there is always a positive and negative to everything.

Always.

You are making one BIG assumption about crew.
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Old 09-05-2014, 04:54 PM   #1129
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You are making one BIG assumption about crew.
Note that I said "if" to start it but then just did the math. Now I do mean equally competent crew as well. I will just say the odds of the entire crew becoming incapacitated decrease as the crew size increases. I can't prove the percentages and I can also point out many situations where there were crews of three or more and for some reason they couldn't continue even though the boat was still ok. Some of the recent rescues left you wondering "Why?" But collectively it seems they just couldn't take anymore mentally even if they might have physically. The wrong crew could certainly distract from the task at hand. I was also strictly mentioning the entire crew being incapacitated, rather than the total safety picture. Multiple crew members could be physically fine and still screw up.

I look at your paravane episode. I thought at the time it sure would have been nice to have had another crew member. On the other hand, I think of what had you gone over the side. Most crew members would not have been capable of rescuing you, don't know how to.

Would you have avoided that one little stretch that you labelled as poor decision making. With the right crew yes. More the second mind and a more rested mind than anything physical. And that's a part of it you pointed out that I hadn't adequately considered.

While I do believe a qualified crew of three is inherently safer than one, that doesn't say that one is unsafe. Similarly a 300' Feadship is safer than a KK 42 but I don't consider the KK 42 unsafe and most of us don't have a 300' Feadship. And we'll say we wouldn't want one but it's easy to say when we know we could never afford one.

I'm sure you were told you were crazy to do this as we certainly have been told anytime we mentioned our plans. Maybe we are crazy. But they just don't understand our desire or dream. And we'll minimize the risk just as you did while we'll accept there remains some risk.

But anything we say about risks is subjective as we don't have a trial of some sort with 1000 going one way and 1000 the other so we can see how many of each group make it.
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Old 09-05-2014, 05:29 PM   #1130
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Richard,

I watched most of your videos and the one thing that stood out to me,

The sound of your Ford Lehman

That engine kept on going and going and going. It sounded happy to be taking you across the ocean!!!
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Old 09-05-2014, 06:51 PM   #1131
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Richard,

I watched most of your videos and the one thing that stood out to me,

The sound of your Ford Lehman

That engine kept on going and going and going. It sounded happy to be taking you across the ocean!!!
It was actually saying "Is this ever going to end? You trying to kill me man? I need to get to the bathroom bad."
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Old 09-06-2014, 02:30 AM   #1132
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[QUOTE=Wxx3;264757]

One thing I have learned, is that there is always a positive and negative to everything.

Always. [QUOTE]



What would the positives have been if you had fallen over board and been lost at sea while working on the paravane pole?

Your wife collecting your life insurance and an Irish fisherman perhaps finding himself a new boat?

Or for that matter what was the positive in not repairing or replacing the paravane pole in the first place after you were warned it was going to fail?

The fact that you didn't fall over board while securing it at sea after it did fail?
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Old 09-06-2014, 04:34 AM   #1133
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The down side,
Long story short,
I've read accounts of owners not realizing they had an incompetent crew member until they woke up with water in their cabin.

Many of you are assuming crew does what you expect them to do at any given moment.

I can find far more accounts of an action by a single crew member sinking a vessel or putting all on board at risk, then of single handers dying or worse.

Now, I've said that I would have preferred finding a crew mate, but to think that having a crew mate is always better than nothing, is simply not supported by the facts.
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Old 09-06-2014, 09:02 AM   #1134
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Second that. I've been offshore in bad conditions where the second crew member startered freaking out. Nothing like trying to manage a boat, bad seas AND try to placate someone miserable, emotionally freaked or seasick? Some of that behavior is contagious.

Sometimes I get twinges of being seasick. Never very bad, but can feel it. But I NEVER get those twinges while single handing. Something about responsibility, who knows.
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Old 09-06-2014, 10:12 AM   #1135
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.

Now, I've said that I would have preferred finding a crew mate, but to think that having a crew mate is always better than nothing, is simply not supported by the facts.
Obviously the competency and quality of a crew mate is part of it. At no time when one is mentioning crew are they saying it's better to have an idiot crew mate than none at all. I'd say though that two Richards would be better than one. Someone else equal to you or better in skill and experience. Is there really any argument with that? And even a lesser skilled person who would do and only do exactly as you told them.

The assumption too is that you're capable of determining competency in crew before taking them aboard.
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Old 09-06-2014, 10:26 AM   #1136
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Wifey B: All couples and all people are different. But I can't imagine what Julie went through reading and tracking you by yourself. I would have absolutely freaked out on a daily and hourly and every minute basis. If my hubby talked about doing something like that single handed you'd hear me screaming NO NO NO PLEASE DON'T throughout the world. And had something happened the guilt she would have felt because she couldn't be there with and for you. I know how anxious my hubby and I were for you and we have never met you and certainly aren't married to you.

So, congrats on what you accomplished. But neither of us would ever ever ever in a million years do that single handed or encourage anyone else to do so. We respect your views and choice but do disagree with them. And we've read dozens of sailing books, many single handed, but the idea of a moving vessel with no human who is awake on board is something we will continue to believe is unwise.

Now, I'm sure we....especially me....do lots of things you might say are unwise. Like, I don't know.....maybe too much s....oh can't put that here...maybe we're too cautious in our boating habits. Maybe too many marinas and not enough anchoring. Maybe too much power and not enough sail.

But that's one part of the story missing so far. How did and does Julie feel about it?
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Old 09-06-2014, 10:42 AM   #1137
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I'd like to ask about the fine Irish single malt. Have you tried any?

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Old 09-06-2014, 11:07 AM   #1138
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I'd like to know what you learned about your ComNav, how to tweak it etc. I have the 1001 model and could use some advice. Took the boat out last week and set it to navigate a course in pretty choppy conditions. It basically followed the course but every now and then would take a wide swing to port, which was where the chop and wind were coming from. I adjusted the sp setting from 0 to 6, which seemed to help. Should have had the birds out which definitely would have helped.
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Old 09-06-2014, 11:50 AM   #1139
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As Richard correctly mentions...
__________________________________________________ _____

[QUOTE=Wxx3;264757]

One thing I have learned, is that there is always a positive and negative to everything.

Always. [QUOTE]

__________________________________________________ ______

Old saying: "If you want it done right… ya gotts ta do it yourself!”

Now, that little ditty only goes so far; but… the distance to take it is purely subjective to each individual’s self-felt competency for completing any situation single handed.

Two best reasons I can see for a first mate on a boat such as KK doing a passage such as Richard very successfully accomplished on his own:

1. Person awake at all times
2. Helping hand for “do-it” needs that may arise or help if personal accident occurs (companionship is secondary/limited - mostly, one asleep and one awake)

Two top reasons for going single handed:

a. No one to keep watch over (especially someone just met for this occasion and completely untested)
b. No chance of incorrect doings by another while Captain is sleeping… having already set boat’s coordinates into action via trusted mechanical/electric means

Obviousness of Richard’s capabilities for single-handing this marine event are self-evident. No matter the number of people aboard I’m quite sure Julie would still have been considerably concerned until port-of-call was reached. Also, I can guess that Julie well knows Richard’s capabilities from previous accomplishments and felt pretty darn confident that he can finish what he sets out to do! Ya could say – “This isn’t Richard’s first day on the beach!”

I agree with Richard’s quote at top… “…always a positive and negative to everything.”

Choices made by any boat’s Captain are purely the right to that Captain’s feeling of their personal self-competency. To go against a Captain’s orders or wishes is mutiny! (hard to have happen during single a handed cruise!) Which may be correct to have done if it relates to Lieutenant Commander Phillip Queeg (Humphrey Bogart) clicking/grinding a pair of steel ball bearings together in his hands (especially while sweating profusely on the witness stand) in 1954 film...“The Caine Mutiny”. LOL

That said: Do as you feel fit Richard. You have my full support. I look forward to learning about you continued adventure while it is unfolding!

Be careful in your decisions - and then- Get It On!

Your Boat Bud! - Art
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Old 09-06-2014, 12:49 PM   #1140
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Some of you guys act like there's competent crew available on every marina park bench. I've heard more horror stories from "professional captains" with decades of sea experience about taking new crew members on a crossing. Their thinking every time was "having someone along was better than nothing, at least they'd have someone for wheel watch" too. 3 days out the previously known or unknown crew member turns into a bigger liability than a busted through hull.

Life ain't perfect or risk free, you make your choices and accept your risks. For the obvious follow up replies to this post about hiring a licensed captain go ask Galaxy Girl how that worked out her first time. That guy came recommended from someone she trusted as a marine professional if I recall and that was just a hop down the Florida coast, not a crossing from Azores to Ireland.

Now Richard, about that single malt...
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