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Old 09-02-2014, 12:54 PM   #1101
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So the top picture is the map I drew on the morning of the 21 st.

The second map is from the 23rd.

I needed to stay ob the east side the the low that was moving ne on the 23rd.
Thanks for posting those charts. I was really curious to see what you were doing with the data.

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I simply did not appreciate how slow Dauntless moves in comparison to these pressure systems.
It is rather humbling to see the position, course guestimates and speeds of the lows compared to the position, course and speed of Dauntless and realizing that some of the lows were simply unavoidable because they were moving so fast. Now I KNEW the weather moves faster than a trawler but it is a whole new lesson to see the wee little spot on the ocean about to be under a deep low and the best one can do is to try to move away from the worst part of the weather.

Later,
Dan
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Old 09-02-2014, 02:11 PM   #1102
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Do you have any way to get/see weather data first hand so there is no need to go through a second or third party?

Do you have a SAT phone or SSB on board?
No jsut the InReach, which just allows text mgs.
i like it.

I think that had I had too much info it would not have been helpful.
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Old 09-02-2014, 02:15 PM   #1103
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Thanks for posting those charts. I was really curious to see what you were doing with the data.



It is rather humbling to see the position, course guestimates and speeds of the lows compared to the position, course and speed of Dauntless and realizing that some of the lows were simply unavoidable because they were moving so fast. Now I KNEW the weather moves faster than a trawler but it is a whole new lesson to see the wee little spot on the ocean about to be under a deep low and the best one can do is to try to move away from the worst part of the weather.

Later,
Dan
Actually the lesson I learned is that i really cannot even move away. I'm simply too slow and the scales are such that for me to be 50 nm east or west of a given point is simply not significant.

To develop an overall plan is fine, but more than that??

I just needed to be more clear as to what I needed
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Old 09-02-2014, 02:37 PM   #1104
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No jsut the InReach, which just allows text mgs.
i like it.

I think that had I had too much info it would not have been helpful.
I really enjoyed having HAM SSB on board when I was single handing. Checking into the nets to give my position update then moving off net to socialize. Also when buddy boating and distance exceeds VHF range, you can still stay in touch. This was before GPS, Internet, and InReach but even today I would have HAM/Marine SSB on board, but that's just me.
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Old 09-02-2014, 02:47 PM   #1105
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Richard, I may have missed it but does your bend paravane pole require replacement or are you able to have it repaired/straightened?? I expect you may need it at some future date lol!!
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Old 09-02-2014, 03:35 PM   #1106
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Richard, I may have missed it but does your bend paravane pole require replacement or are you able to have it repaired/straightened?? I expect you may need it at some future date lol!!
I'm replacing the pole, as john Duffy told me to do months ago.
He said i could also cut off the bent end.

I'll listen better i the future.
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Old 09-02-2014, 03:36 PM   #1107
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Actually the lesson I learned is that i really cannot even move away. I'm simply too slow and the scales are such that for me to be 50 nm east or west of a given point is simply not significant.

To develop an overall plan is fine, but more than that??

I just needed to be more clear as to what I needed
We did eventually get the right information flowing your way after a day or so.

The only chance one has of TRYING to avoid the storm, is if the 48 and 96 hour forecasts are accurate and they were not even close during your trip to Ireland. The only thing one can really do is set a plan with the best data and go from there. And best might be just trying to get out of the worst part of the storm. Key word trying.

Forgetting fuel supply and such for a moment, in the sea state you were in, do you think you could have gone faster?

SPOT was showing Dauntless going from 6 to 8 knots. Was the faster speeds from surfing or engine power?

Later,
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Old 09-02-2014, 03:45 PM   #1108
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We did eventually get the right information flowing your way after a day or so.

The only chance one has of TRYING to avoid the storm, is if the 48 and 96 hour forecasts are accurate and they were not even close during your trip to Ireland. The only thing one can really do is set a plan with the best data and go from there. And best might be just trying to get out of the worst part of the storm. Key word trying.

Forgetting fuel supply and such for a moment, in the sea state you were in, do you think you could have gone faster?

SPOT was showing Dauntless going from 6 to 8 knots. Was the faster speeds from surfing or engine power?

Later,
Dan
Spot takes this instantaneous speed which does not apply.

THe waves slowed me down, a lot.
here are my avg 24 hr each day in knots: from NS to Azores (you can see how the prevailing westerlies helped
6.1
6.0
5.5
5.5
5.3
6.6
5.9
6.4
6.9
6.4
6.5
6.6

Horta to Ireland
5.4
5.2
5.4
4.8
3.9
5.6
6.1
4.9
5.9
5.8
5.2
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Old 09-02-2014, 04:38 PM   #1109
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I’m going to the Amsterdam Boat Show on Thursday. I’ll be gone a week and when I return, I will be posting my conclusions and lessons learned.

But I think that Dan, Mark , Ed and Roger and all of you who have been following this voyage really deserve not only my thanks, but I'll give you a heads up as to the main conclusion.

Which I learned from Les Weatherritt’s book, “Your First Atlantic Crossing”, you and your boat need to be prepared for the worst weather you would expect for that season, if you are, you’re ready, if not, you’re not.

It’s not about weather forecasts. Period.

I knew I had a boat that could cross from June to September. Would I have gone in November, NO.

But I also learned a lot about the Krogen:

• 6 days earlier, when I had 30 knot winds on the bow, I changed course. During the worst of it, with far greater winds and seas, I kept on course even though they were on my beam! I had sea room to go wither up wind or down. I clearly didn’t think the situation bad enough that I needed to alter course.

• I had the top of a wave sheer off by the wind and hit the pilot house windows. It was the only substantial water on the windows the entire 5 days of the storm. Though had I turned into the weather, I would have had more water over the bow. Had I turned downwind, I would have had none.

• My friend Ed, who has a Nordhavn and has had many boats and much travel, when we were discussing my storm window project, was convinced that I really only needed them on the salon windows. He was right. The salon windows did get a lot of spray, but even being beam to the sea, they took no water.

• When I was stopped for half hour to retrieve the bent pole, while the boat did roll, it never took any waves over the rails. I got splashed once after being on the side deck for 20 minutes. (maybe someone could tell me the wave heights there?)

• The engine room is quite peaceful with all the rolling and mayhem going on. I was changing fuel filters in the worst of it and hardly felt any rolling at all. If only there had been enough room for my bed!
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Old 09-02-2014, 05:57 PM   #1110
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I look forward to it. I'm guessing because it would have been in the tank that had water in it.
This just reinforces may long held belief that water probes with alarms are more important to install in Racors than just simple vacuum gauges. Especially on a trip like this. Clogged filter elements very rarely shut an engine down without some warning. But water in your fuel can. And water can do damage that can not be field repaired.
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Old 09-02-2014, 07:36 PM   #1111
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Richard, it was a pleasure following you and trying to provide what we saw. Providing any information to someone that is so knowledgeable was a bit intimidating as Dan and I discussed. The fear was wrong info or putting our own twist into a situation. I have learned a lot by this and hope to learn much more, whenever you come back and give your talks. Thanks again for taking us for the ride!
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Old 09-03-2014, 03:51 AM   #1112
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Well, I was in the market for a KK42, but now... I dunno. Prices are probably gonna double after this!

Massive congratulations on your successful crossing. Extremely inspiring. Makes me really wonder what the hell I'm doing with my life. I should be out doing this kind of thing! What am I waiting for?! Also, I really need to take some more meteorology courses... As everyone else has said, thank you for sharing all of this with us!
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Old 09-03-2014, 07:00 AM   #1113
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Actually, I was hoping the message I was getting across was to know less meteorology and more houw your boat handles in every condition.

I think I need to do a dedicated post about wx.
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:27 AM   #1114
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Actually, I was hoping the message I was getting across was to know less meteorology and more houw your boat handles in every condition.

I think I need to do a dedicated post about wx.
The one constant in weather is it's always subject to change.
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:20 AM   #1115
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Hello Richard

I surely hope TF names a special category after you and your boat's ocean tour.

"Fearless - Dauntless" comes to mind!

Your personal sea (and boat) handling capabilities are astounding. Having been brought up on Atlantic coast and often doing NY to Maine as well as to points in between during 1960's/70's I understand the ocean perils at hand. Having experienced some pretty bad, unexpected blows while off shore (old school forecasts left much to be desired) I have microcosm gimps to what you endured 24/7 days on end.

My hat's off to you and hand raises high in effort for TF bosses to establish your "Deep Sea Travel" (another potential name) category ASAP. Then, on that specialized/separate forum link, you can continue providing wonderful accounts to us all regarding your remarkable journey of a lifetime!

Happy Travel Daze! - Art

PS: I sent a PM early this morn that may interest you.
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:56 AM   #1116
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Spot takes this instantaneous speed which does not apply.

THe waves slowed me down, a lot.
here are my avg 24 hr each day in knots: from NS to Azores (you can see how the prevailing westerlies helped
That is really interesting data. I am kinda surprised you were able to go as fast as you did in some of the weather.

I had to throw the numbers into a spreadsheet.

Looks like the average from NS to Azores was 6.14 mph and 5.29 mph from Azores to Ireland which is only 14% less or .9 less mph.

Later,
Dan
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Old 09-03-2014, 12:28 PM   #1117
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Well, I was in the market for a KK42, but now... I dunno. Prices are probably gonna double after this!


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Massive congratulations on your successful crossing. Extremely inspiring. Makes me really wonder what the hell I'm doing with my life. I should be out doing this kind of thing! What am I waiting for?! Also, I really need to take some more meteorology courses... As everyone else has said, thank you for sharing all of this with us!
Yes, take some weather course and read some books.

Also, read up on storm tactics. The Pardy's and the Dashew's have good books on the subject. Further more, the Dashew's have a book about weather as well. Their two books are closely related in content which some might find repetitive, or as I do, more instructive.

The Dashew's website has a few discussions, SetSail¬Ľ Blog Archive ¬Ľ Heavy Weather Issues

The Dashew's have written four books that I know of, and I have all four. I have read about 2.5 of the books. The half books is their boat encyclopedia which is huge. I bought two of their books and they have release their storm tactics and weather book for free download!

SetSail¬Ľ Blog Archive ¬Ľ Weather Forecasting, Storm Tactics & Successful Cruising – Plus An Offer You Can’t Refuse

The hard back books are around $70 a book. I bought two of them and I will actually buy the two books that are free. I think the books are worth having in hard copy and taking up precious book space on a boat.

Another good book is http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Weather-...500+mb+book+li

I would suggest reading the weather books FIRST and then reading the Dashew storm tactics book. The Dashew books discuss weather AND the storms they use as examples. I think it would be more helpful to know more about the weather before jumping into the storm tactics book. I read the storm tactics book first, followed by the weather books. I wish I had done the revers.

The more you read, the more you know you know nothing.

Later,
Dan
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Old 09-03-2014, 12:35 PM   #1118
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Actually, I was hoping the message I was getting across was to know less meteorology and more houw your boat handles in every condition.
I think it is critical to know what the boat can do, and just as importantly, what it can't do. Having said that, I think most boats can handle more than the crew. How many boats have had the crew rescued and the boat is found weeks/months later hundreds, if not thousands of miles, from the point of rescue?

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I think I need to do a dedicated post about wx.
Please Please Please!

Later,
Dan
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:38 PM   #1119
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I would suggest reading the weather books FIRST and then reading the Dashew storm tactics book. I think it would be more helpful to know more about the weather before jumping into the storm tactics book. I read the storm tactics book first, followed by the weather books. I wish I had done the revers.
Doesn't matter which you learn first, but in the long run on ocean crossing the storm tactics and ability to handle rough conditions may well be more important than any weather books. Richard is a trained meteorologist and one of the lessons he says from the trip is the limits of weather forecasting.

I'm going to toss one other thing out. If as a coastal cruiser you avoid all but the best weather, you won't likely find yourself prepared. We had a captain training us who has encountered all sorts of conditions. But he trained us in some rough conditions. Not dangerous but those that mostly you would have run to shore. We were close enough to shore to get there at any time but we took hours dealing with rough conditions and approaching from all angles. We learned more about the capability of the boat and worked on our own skills. We would prefer not to handle 15' waves but we do have the confidence we'd know how and confidence is often the key. The moment you say or even think "We're not going to make it" you'll be yelling Mayday later. You've got to be able to think, "Ok I know the boat can do this and I know what I'm supposed to do. If I do it right we'll get through this."

Modern day boats are pretty amazing and solid. You don't read stories about them breaking apart leaving the occupants stranded at sea. The stories start with some form of mechanical failure. For sailors, generally with the sails or autopilot and then engine. And ultimately then a lot of the rescues are because the crew wasn't prepared, didn't know the right actions to take, and couldn't figure out what to do.

There was never in my mind a question about the KK42 being ok. The question was whether Richard was up for the challenge. We obviously have the answer now that he was. While I'd think he is strongly against repeating those conditions, I'd also think there is tremendous pride in knowing he can handle them and next time he'd even do it better with the things he did learn.

For all of those here who have read of the Nordhavn Atlantic Crossing, I'd encourage reading books and details about it. Lessons to be learned. There were 15 Nordhavns, 1 Seaton, 1 Krogen and 1 Monk-Mcqueen. As part of the rally they had engineers available, medical staff, and more. The non-Nordhavn's actually had fewer problems than the Nordhavn's but may have had more experienced owners. While the boats had to be capable of making it on their own without the flotilla of help, some of the crews may not have been. Stabilizers were a big problem. One that wouldn't be such an issue today. But it's important to know what you'd do if a stabilizer broke just as when a paravane does. This was a great event because one was able to do it with the safety of others with them. Now I recall one lady who did decide on the way that she and her husband would put the boat up for sale as soon as they hit shore. So it wasn't a great experience for all. I'd ask how she'd been prepared for that. Everyone on the boat needs to be prepared. If you're trying to handle things at the helm and you have someone screaming "we're going to die" that doesn't make it easy.

The point is that Richard just did it in the KK42. You could redo that rally boats from 15 different builders, all capable of the trip. Obviously important to fully prepare the boat before the trip. But the key is going to be the crew. Perhaps Nordhavn would handle it better and ride better than other brands. But they didn't complete the rally because they were Nordhavn's. They completed it because the crews were capable and there was lot's of support available there as well.

While it's important to know the capabilities of your boat and equipment, it's more important to know your own capabilities. You can bet on some challenges along the way. Notice Richard's challenges weren't on the long leg. On thing Nordhavn required before the rally was that all participants do at least a 600 mile run offshore or crossing before they could enter.
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:50 PM   #1120
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Richard, I found a bit of wifi and went to your blog. Nicely done. This thread is just to long to read in a short time. Hope to see you and Julie in a few weeks. We're turning back to the barn this weekend. No planned stops yet, but rosa and I would love to catch up with you two somewhere along our way.


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