Seahorse Marine Diesel Duck Vibration - Advice needed

[SeahorseMarineDD54201]

By the same argument the reamer will sag also. Can't support it everywhere, all the time. Tolerances for everything.


Shipyards build boats with acceptable vibration levels on a regular basis. There is at least one boat like yours with acceptable levels. There is someone out there, not too far away, who can make this very simple.


There is someone here who posts a tagline that says something like:
Once you buy the boat you are only the caretaker for the next buyer.


You just get some time with the boat and your time is passing. You never get the time back. If what you want is elaborate theoretical diagnostics then that's good too. I can understand that and be happy for you.

I'd like to be a Diesel Duck lifer until my time is up. Fixing this vibration has become my obsession, though that may not be shared by Seahorse.

 

[SeahorseMarineDD54201]

That is exactly what I was getting at.

How do you keep the whip bearing (assuming a roller/ball type) bearing from being ruined by the salt water its running in? As most anyone can tell you, a worn "planetary" type bearing will cause/allow deflection due to its rolling components causing chatter as they momentarily bind against their housing, keepers, and each other.

How far ahead of the shaft seal is the transmission? or next support bearing if there is one?

As crummy as it sounds, it seems like a significantly larger diameter shaft is in your future. IF your shaft is true and your prop isn't the cause. Has anyone ever suggested inserting a cutlass bearing at the inboard end of the shaft log? If you have a water injection between it and the seal it will prevent premature wear.

You need to look at the diagram in Post #127.

The Whip Bearing is physically identical to the Cutlass Bearing, a Duramax water lubricated bearing, no balls. The shaft is supported by the Cutlass Bearing at Prop end, the Whip Bearing in the middle, and the Thrust Bearing (some would say it's a flange bearing) at the Gear Box end. The Thrust Bearing is a oil lubricated ball bearing. Presently the Whip Bearing is right in the middle between Cutlass Bearing and Thrust Bearing (1.8m from each), though in the past it was about 2' forward.

 

[DDW]

An 11' fiberglass tube would definitely sag under it's own weight. Whether enough to be a concern I don't know. There is another possibility though: if it was supported at the ends and then epoxy injected into the void, it will be buoyant and will float, deflecting upwards. Which wins depends on the size, weight, epoxy density, etc.

As a machinist I can assure you that EVERYTHING sags or defects. Even heavy solid steel castings. Think of everything as being made of rubber - some of it stiffer rubber than others.

 

[twiisted71]

Does it vibrate in reverse as well as forward?

 

[dannc]

SeahorseMarineDD54201,

Did your boat do ok in the typhoon?

You might be also interested in the Dirona blog posts about their prop shaft vibration. They mentioned some information that might be helpful,https://mvdirona.com/2018/09/trondheim-projects/ and see the section on "Shaft Runout" There is a link in that discussion about their shaft vibration problems that started back in the UK.

Later,
Dan

 

[Boat]

Hi. I did some more reading about your situation and for several reasons am now even more convinced that you need highly competent vibration analysis.

I looked at the sequence of pictures showing 55' Diesel Duck construction on the Diesel Duck website. I would not rule out the possibility that you have issues with the whole back end of the boat. The analysis needs to include the rudder, keel, prop, shaft and hull.

I also question the motivation for not returning your boat to the factory. There may be a question of leverage with legal jurisdictions, statute of limitations and other issues beside government policy with taxes or bonds or whatever. … Bad press, public scrutiny, conflicts with promoters, etc. Out of sight, out of mind.

Does an electronic model of your boat exist? The plans should be digitized on a computer somewhere and can be analyzed for strain and harmonic issues.

Somewhere, reasonably close to you, exists a team of naval architects, engineers and vibration analysts who can conclusively troubleshoot this.

Wishing you the best as another year quickly passes.

 

[BIG CAT]

Any updates on progress?

 

[SeahorseMarineDD54201]

Any updates on progress?

The progress overall is negative.

As summarized in Post #1, Seahorse at the time (June 2018) would not put in the bond and towage to bring the boat back to its yard ($$$), nor would it pay for fixing the boat in Hong Kong ($$$$$). Admittedly I was not happy because Seahorse knowingly delivered a defective boat, fully aware of this financial implication.

Subsequently to his credit, Bill Kimley had a change of heart. He wanted to replace the 2" Chinese shaft with a brand name 2-1/4", without the boat returning to the yard. In doing so he had to send his team to Hong Kong and ream the stern tube.

We are now back to square one, that nothing would be done unless I pay for the bond and towage to bring the boat back the yard. Also Bill no longer wants to talk to me.

Here are some more details:

1. Bill Kimley was furious upon seeing me in my visit to Seahorse on 31 August. He said my posts on various boating forums made Seahorse look bad. I was baffled for all along I told Bill about the posts. Bill said he no longer wanted to have anything to do with my boat, instead (his step-son) Fido would be in charge. Then he told me to leave his office and not to speak to him again.

2. Fido in the end ordered a Chinese made shaft, which had equivalent specification as an Aquamet 22. According to Fido the material is so rare in China that the mill had to roll a new bar stock just for my boat (and the new Puffin). I tried hard to change Fido's mind to no avail. The shaft was delivered to the yard on 21 September. It could not be machined because a critical parameter known only to the drafting lady was missing, and she was hospitalized. As of the last I checked with Stella Zheng on 13 December, the drafting lady was still in the hospital.

3. Seahorse made good progress on the reaming tool for the stern tube and assigned in my view, their best engineer Mr. Liu to lead the project. Mr. Liu joined Seahorse after my boat was delivered; he was a breeze of fresh air and struck me as someone who would not compromise on the quality of his work, and would pursue any quality issues with Seahorse Management. Unfortunately he just (end 2018) left the yard.

4. When last asked about progress in December 2018, Stella again talked about fixing the vibration when the boat returns to the yard. When asked about cash to pay for the tow and the bond, Stella did not reply.

 

[Genecop]

This is very disappointing, The Diesel Duck was high on my list, a story has many sides I would like to hear Bills position...

 

[Lou_tribal]

What a bad story! Hope you will gt all this sorted out once and for all. Good luck!

L

 

[SeahorseMarineDD54201]

This is very disappointing, The Diesel Duck was high on my list, a story has many sides I would like to hear Bills position...

This is just my experience specific to DD542. As far as I know DD462s are well built without vibration. Of course no boats are perfect, so long the issues may be handled within the capability of the owner. Unfortunately for DD54201, vibration is not within my capability.

 

[BIG CAT]

This is just my experience specific to DD542. As far as I know DD462s are well built without vibration. Of course no boats are perfect, so long the issues may be handled within the capability of the owner. Unfortunately for DD54201, vibration is not within my capability.

It doesn't matter how a product is if the company that makes it is unwilling to stand behind it. Imo they have been throwing darts it because they are unwilling to spend the money and time to truly find the cause and fix it. They keep dragging it out hoping you will get tired of the same old song and dance and just go away.

 

[Delfin]

Very short sighted on the part of Seahorse Marine. Issues like this, once discussed on the web, are easily retrievable forever by anyone thinking about buying their product. Whatever it would have cost SH to fix this is going to be less than the loss of business they will likely experience, even if they can't quantify how many times a sale didn't happen as a result. The OP seems to have been as reasonable and patient as a consumer can be, so I doubt this problem will be dismissed by people who come across the discussion.

Seahorse, if you are following this thread, you should step up and prove you're worthy of getting people's business.

 

[stubones99]

I once had an editor who said "Never pick a fight with anyone who buys ink by the barrel and paper by the ton." and this is the case here. The longer they let his problem persist, the more bad press they will receive. Fortunately, Mr. SeahorseMarineDD54201 does not have to buy paper or ink but can air his grievance in public here. Seahorse Marine should spend a reasonable sum to resolve this issue, and come aboard to educate the followers here, to help repair the damage that their faulty design, engineering, and support seems to have caused.

Getting pissed just because a customer aired their problem in public is a VERY short-sighted move. Doing the right thing early on would have resolved the issues and prevented this bad PR from becoming a thorn in their side.

This is the same issue with the almost new Back Cove boat that sank at the dock in Alaska. Back Cove says not my problem, but the owner has published two separate reviews of what likely caused the problem causing the sinking. As a result, when I see Back Cove or their family of boats, I immediately think "Thia is the company that put heavy outboards on a boat that sank and they didn't support the owner to make the situation whole again" and I walk on by... Sure, it may be a different boat, but the stink of one public problem can foul up the whole company.

 

[gsholz]

This all seems hung up on the "bond" issue/cost to temporarily re-import (?) the boat into China. Is the bond for the entire cost of the boat? How good are the chances of getting the money back on re-export?

 

[Delfin]

I once had an editor who said "Never pick a fight with anyone who buys ink by the barrel and paper by the ton." and this is the case here. The longer they let his problem persist, the more bad press they will receive. Fortunately, Mr. SeahorseMarineDD54201 does not have to buy paper or ink but can air his grievance in public here. Seahorse Marine should spend a reasonable sum to resolve this issue, and come aboard to educate the followers here, to help repair the damage that their faulty design, engineering, and support seems to have caused.

Getting pissed just because a customer aired their problem in public is a VERY short-sighted move. Doing the right thing early on would have resolved the issues and prevented this bad PR from becoming a thorn in their side.

This is the same issue with the almost new Back Cove boat that sank at the dock in Alaska. Back Cove says not my problem, but the owner has published two separate reviews of what likely caused the problem causing the sinking. As a result, when I see Back Cove or their family of boats, I immediately think "Thia is the company that put heavy outboards on a boat that sank and they didn't support the owner to make the situation whole again" and I walk on by... Sure, it may be a different boat, but the stink of one public problem can foul up the whole company.

I believe you are referring to the Cutwater that sank at the dock, not a Black Cove. What little I know about Black Cove, they seem to be pretty well built and designed.

 

[twistedtree]

I believe you are referring to the Cutwater that sank at the dock, not a Black Cove. What little I know about Black Cove, they seem to be pretty well built and designed.

Yes, very important distinction. Cutwater sank, not Back Cove. Back Cove is a quality boat built by Saber in Maine. They are the Toyota, where Saber is the Lexus of the company. But quality boats. I know first hand.

 

[Genecop]

Nothing against the opening poster who is having the problem. But I would love to hear from Seahorse...The idea that the company delivered a defective product and then outright refuses to correct the problem is beyond disturbing and very hard to believe...

I know it happens everyday , But I guess I have been reading for a number of years about the many happy Duck Owners and I just assumed that the company was reputable...

 

[CPAY]

Hello SeahorseMarineDD54201

My name is Philip and I am from HONG KONG.

I would like to know have you talked with ship yards in Hong Kong about this problems and the potential reasons that caused the problem?

 

[sunchaser]

This is the same issue with the almost new Back Cove boat that sank at the dock in Alaska. Back Cove says not my problem, but the owner has published two separate reviews of what likely caused the problem causing the sinking. As a result, when I see Back Cove or their family of boats, I immediately think "Thia is the company that put heavy outboards on a boat that sank and they didn't support the owner to make the situation whole again" and I walk on by... Sure, it may be a different boat, but the stink of one public problem can foul up the whole company.

An equally big problem with the internet is posters are unknown to us and often get their facts wrong. I am familiar with the Cutwater 30 that turned turtle, but the Back Cove is a new dock talk item now too.

 

[stubones99]

I believe you are referring to the Cutwater that sank at the dock, not a Black Cove. What little I know about Black Cove, they seem to be pretty well built and designed.

You are correct and I was wrong about Black Cove. My apologies.

 

[BIG CAT]

Very short sighted on the part of Seahorse Marine. Issues like this, once discussed on the web, are easily retrievable forever by anyone thinking about buying their product. Whatever it would have cost SH to fix this is going to be less than the loss of business they will likely experience, even if they can't quantify how many times a sale didn't happen as a result. The OP seems to have been as reasonable and patient as a consumer can be, so I doubt this problem will be dismissed by people who come across the discussion.

Seahorse, if you are following this thread, you should step up and prove you're worthy of getting people's business.

What's sad is they have probably pissed away more money one half ass trouble shooting it. When they could have brought in someone to do a vibration analysis and find out what is really causing it. They definitely shot themselves in the foot with this one. Mistakes happen but how they are handled is very telling when it comes to dealing with company's. I for one would avoid them like the plague and I'm sure after there response many other will also.

 

[SeahorseMarineDD54201]

This all seems hung up on the "bond" issue/cost to temporarily re-import (?) the boat into China. Is the bond for the entire cost of the boat? How good are the chances of getting the money back on re-export?

The bond is somewhere between 40 to 45% of the assessed value of the boat. My boat is likely assessed very close to its original price. The government would give the money back upon re-export, though it may take a while according to chats on the net. However I suspect Seahorse has reasonably good relationship with the government, and should get it back within reasonable time.

I did repeatedly urge Stella Zheng to borrow the fund from banks, for it would be returned anyway. Stella gave no reply.

 

[SeahorseMarineDD54201]

Nothing against the opening poster who is having the problem. But I would love to hear from Seahorse...The idea that the company delivered a defective product and then outright refuses to correct the problem is beyond disturbing and very hard to believe...

I know it happens everyday , But I guess I have been reading for a number of years about the many happy Duck Owners and I just assumed that the company was reputable...

As stated in Post #1, Seahorse has tried all simple fixes (therefore did not outright refuse to correct the problem). Seahorse still contends it will correct the problem. In fact Bill Kimely wanted to fix it right in Hong Kong until he got upset. We are now back to square one, that the boat has to be brought back to the yard, not at Seahorse' expense.

As stated in Post #1, DD462s in general in my opinion are beautifully built. I am sure many owners are happy with their boats. I would have been the happiest among them if my DD542 had been built just like theirs, without vibration.

 

[SeahorseMarineDD54201]

Hello SeahorseMarineDD54201

My name is Philip and I am from HONG KONG.

I would like to know have you talked with ship yards in Hong Kong about this problems and the potential reasons that caused the problem?

As stated in Post #1 Item 4, Seahorse engaged a Hong Kong sub-contract yard to replace the full size 3 blade max prop with a half powered 4 blade fixed prop for trouble shooting trial purpose. An additional Whip Bearing was also inserted from the prop end (Post #13).

During the sea trial and dry docking, the sub-contractor tossed up the possibility of prop blade clearance, damaged Cutlass Bearing, and panting, and in the end said these should not have been the problem. The sub-contractor did not think the shaft was too thin. However he did say as good practice, they never use Chinese made shafts, and recalled a case where a vibrating boat (not a Seahorse) was fixed after replacing the shaft with one made in Japan.

George Buehler later without being told of this, also suggested to change the shaft to a name brand (see Post #1 Item 5).

 

[BruceK]

What a sad story. Would the builder recompense you for interest paid/forgone for Bond and for Towage if a fault is found? When trust is lost,things get messy.

 

[marcoh]

Any update?

 

[Diesel Duck]

Last I noticed the DD54201 is now for sale...

 

[Landshark]

During survey Amadeus had a similar vibration. Regardless of the surveyor's detection of the vibration the owner and broker refused to acknowledge the problem, so I refused to purchase.