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Old 05-17-2013, 01:10 AM   #21
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Mark/Marin-interesting to hear you guys are interested in model railroading. My Dad was for many, many years. He had a room added on to his house and spent almost 20 years building his final layout. He had his own registered RR, logos, paint schemes, etc. When he passed away, my brother and I had his entire layout and stock donated to a model RR club in Jax, Fl. They had to take an exterior wall out to get the layout out in three pieces to reassemble. Some of the model layouts from really serious modelers are truly amazing.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:23 AM   #22
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Could not agree more, Craig! For a guy who really didn't know what he was doing, Mark really came up with a great boat.
Like to think I'm smarter than I look or sound.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:26 AM   #23
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I do not doubt Mark's account of it here whatsoever, it is funny how different our significant others see things from their point of view. Sorry guys, they really love us and our boats but swear we are completely nuts when it comes to purchasing our boats
I'm curious to learn of Perla's version. Regardless, she has always been supportive.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:30 AM   #24
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Thanks for your responses Mark. I get the impression not only from your choice of boat but also in your expressed interest in ships, trains, planes etc. that you have a pretty strong appreciation for "stuff that's built to work." In terms of vessels that would be a working boat's lines. The Coot certainly captures that look I think. Nice choice even if the windows do slant the wrong way.

Although for for a modern working boat, they don't.


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Actually, Marin, I think you'd be on your own there, and I wonder if you compare them again, if you really honestly do still believe that in this case specifically, I mean. To me, your post of the same vessel with orthodix back-sloping windows, and being able to directly compare it to Marks Coot, just highlights for me just how better balanced the look is with the forward sloping ones in this case. I'm totally with Craig on this one.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:31 AM   #25
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Cut her loose on your keyboard, Mark. I'd love to read it, too!!
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:44 AM   #26
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I want to hear Craig's wife's version of her conversation with Perla.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:52 AM   #27
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Yo - Craig, Mark, Perla, and Craig's wife - let it all hang out... bet it's all cool!!
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:34 AM   #28
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Actually, Marin, I think you'd be on your own there, and I wonder if you compare them again, if you really honestly do still believe that in this case specifically, I mean..
I've never been one to follow the herd so being on my own is actually the way I like it. And while I think Mark's boat's interior, side window configuration, paint scheme, and other details are superior to Prodigious, I think Prodigious has the nicer profile.

Reverse-rake windows ALWAYS look bad to me, no matter what boat or ship they are on. I totally understand the reason for them and on vessels that benefit from the reverse rake I don't argue their presence even though they still look bad in my opinion. Function over form in these cases.

But I have never seen a vessel, large or small, that has been improved aesthetically by reverse raked windows. Vertical, you bet on boats whose designs support it. But reverse rake? Sorry, in my book they are truly "butt ugly" and they greatly detract from the lines of every vessel they are on. In my opinion.

Boats, like vehicles including pickups, Kenworths and farm tractors, almost always have lines that promote the look of forward motion. It's basic human nature to do that and is why we like Ferraris and Aston Martins but Yugos not so much. Reverse-rake windows are the complete antithesis of the look of forward motion. They in effect bring the design of a boat to a stop, and so negate what otherwise can be really beautiful lines.

Put reverse-rake windows on an Aston Martin Vantage or the original 3.8 litre E-type Jaguar coupe and see how you like it. Putting them on boats is no different in terms of their effect on the "motion" of the design.

That's my take on it, anyway.
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:38 AM   #29
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But Marin, the Coot is merely a 7-knot boat. That's slow-forward motion!
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Old 05-17-2013, 03:01 AM   #30
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But Marin, the Coot is merely a 7-knot boat. That's slow-forward motion!
True, but the aesthetics of a design are not related to the speed it will go. An Aston Martin standing still is a gorgeous car. If all it had was a 65 hp engine in it and it could barely get out of its own way, it would still be a gorgeous car. Because all its lines reinforce forward motion even if that motion is not so fast. And the look of forward motion is inherently pleasing to humans for whatever reason, no matter what the actual speed might be.

One of my all-time favorite boat designs is the J-class sloop Endeavour. Not the Endeavour II which still exists, but the first one. Every one of its lines reinforced the look of forward motion. Yet above the waterline it didn't really matter what it looked like. After all, the boats were only going speeds in the low teens. But the J-class designers gave their boats the aesthetic look of speed as well as the underwater hull lines meant to actually promote speed, and they did it because that's what looked good.
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Old 05-17-2013, 04:03 AM   #31
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I want to hear Craig's wife's version of her conversation with Perla.
I'm sure it's akin to the telephone game we played as children and I can only paraphrase my wife Jennifer's version.

Essentially it was the deposit check you dropped in the mail to have the Coot built. Both of them where astonished that anyone would purchase an item that large sight unseen.

No idea about Perla but Jennifer won't purchase a pair of shoes without trying them on first. She thinks I'm crazy purchasing items online. Purchasing a boat that not only hasn't been built yet, but you've only seen a drawing on the computer for them is quite extraordinary.

Of course they never imagined the amount of time and research you put into it, only the transaction itself. Neither of them have thousands of posts on a forum and in Jennifer's case at least, no lifetime of sailing to draw from either. They also never mention, as you have in an earlier post, that you've purchased a boat in similar fashion years earlier.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:10 AM   #32
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Way I see it... is:

No matter what anyone on the sidelines may think regarding Mark's choice for a boat builder, its looks, the design, or his unusual manner of purchase... “Proof is in The Putting”... Mark apparently made an outstanding set of decisions for a product (boat) that properly cared for could last in good condition for more than a couple of lifetimes!

I give Mark three (3) Thumbs Up!!!
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:30 AM   #33
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Take my word for it, Perla's rendition of this story is priceless.
I have to make the trip to hear the "unvarnished truth" about Mark's decision? What about the rest of the guys who have religiously followed the "Coots" story?

Come on, Mark! Give Craig license to publish the "Coot's" biography!
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:50 AM   #34
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Reverse-rake windows ALWAYS look bad to me, no matter what boat or ship they are on. I totally understand the reason for them and on vessels that benefit from the reverse rake I don't argue their presence even though they still look bad in my opinion. Function over form in these cases.
If you posted that for "shock value," you've succeeded.

Other than their obvious functional value, North Sea windows add a "bulldog" look which complements the work boat's profile. They depict the "seriousness" of the vessel's struggle to move forward. I don't even want to imagine the "Coot" with any other kind of windows. They are perfect!
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:57 AM   #35
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If you posted that for "shock value," you've succeeded.

Other than their obvious functional value, North Sea windows add a "bulldog" look which complements the work boat's profile. They depict the "seriousness" of the vessel's struggle to move forward. I don't even want to imagine the "Coot" with any other kind of windows. They are perfect!
Perfect is a BIG word!
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:32 AM   #36
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Perfect is a BIG word!
Not only is it a big word but a word that can only be used by the beholder...in this case, ME!
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:02 PM   #37
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Beauty, or ugliness, is in the eye of the beholder. I don't go along with the bulldog thing. To me, it's just an awkward design element that fights with all the rest of the Coot's lines.

A long time ago when the topic of these windows came up here I showed some photos of boats that have them-- one was a Selene I think-- to a fellow I see occasionally in the course of my work. He's a lead designer for Teague (aka Walter Darwin Teague), the design firm that has done the interior design for every Boeing passenger plane since, IIRC, the 314 Clipper. The company does all sorts of industrial design from cars to can openers but their office in Everett does only airplane work. My acquaintance conceived the interior design for the 777 which totally changed the look and function of a jetliner's interior and has been the baseline for all our interiors since including the 787, 747-8, and the Sky Interior for the 737.

He took one look at the photos I showed him and his immediate reaction was " Yuck." He then proceeded to give me a half hour explanation in design terms why that design element is so bad. The forward motion thing is all I remember of it but he had other reasons, too.

This doesn't change the fact that if someone finds them pleasing then they are pleasing to that person and they are not wrong for thinking so. But it was interesting to hear in design terms why I have the reaction to them that I do.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:06 PM   #38
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Usually form folows function and all is in harmony.

For night operation the fwd wind screen cant be beat as it is dash reflection free.

What works is prime , for folks out in dark air.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:35 PM   #39
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To me, it's just an awkward design element that fights with all the rest of the Coot's lines.
Since the forward raked windows go against the swept sheer, they appear at first glance to be asymmetrical. A closer look at Coot's rear windows, its stack and complete forward leaning wheel house show that, indeed, it's not. Not only are the forward windows extremely functional (as FF points out) they are in agreement with good work boat design.

Me thinks, Marin, that a pretty face will turn your head every time.

Edit: I stand corrected about the "pretty face" thing.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:46 PM   #40
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Aesthetics aside, I'd say based solely on the numbers, the Coot is a fine choice! Personally I like the aesthetics too!
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