Engine for my duck

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scott2640

scott2640

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Messages
46
Location
United States
I'm planning a home built duck. I've ordered my plans and Mr. Buehler is making some changes that he wanted to make to the original design. I'm currently building a bow roof shed to house my build. I do not have nor have I ever owned a trawler. I know, I know this is a crazy endeavor. I know I have the most dangerous type of ignorance; I don't know what I don't know. However I'm a cautious and thorough person and that is why I am here.

For many parts of the build I'll be able to buy materials pay check to pay check. Some lumber here, some plywood there but some things are a huge portion of the budget, like the engine, tanks and prop shaft and they will require the outlay of a lot of money all at once.

I don't even know where to begin. I've talked to a sales rep for John Deere and Beta marine. I tried to find an IVECO dealer but struck out. I know there are lots of other engine manufactures but I just tried some research with names I've heard over and over from other sources. I was just trying to get a feel for what some of the cost's would be so I could assemble some type of budget.

My question is, where do I start? Do people have some contacts or places they could refer me to get some rough idea on anticipated costs for these various high cost components?

I know people are reluctant to talk finances online and I understand, but I would love to hear from members here on what they think I should expect to pay for things like a new 75HP (or similar ball park HP) diesel engine, fuel tanks (I'll need 2 approximately 350 gallon port and starboard tanks), prop and prop shaft.

I'll also welcome the big ticket items I'm not even thinking of....."don't forget..... kind of thing.

appreciate any help or insight.
 
John Deere Marine Propulsion Engine...

Scott:

I recommend you start with a phone call to Greg Light at the Cascade Engine Center in Washington state.

Cascade Engine Center « © 2016 Cascade Engine Center. All rights reserved.

I also recommend you look at the John Deere 4045TFM85 M2 rated Diesel Engine. It's 125 hp and Tier lll. My best guess is that you can estimate about $28k for the JD (Keel cooled, Cushy Float engine isolators, gear driven seawater pump with SS exhaust elbow, Balmar 190 amp alternator, regulator, Walker air filter, front crankshaft pulley, helm and fly bridge panels, ZF 63 transmission, harnesses, electric shift, shaft coupling)

https://www.deere.com/en_US/product...ulsion_certified/4045_series/4045TFM85_C.page


P.S. Don't go with an IVECO. It's significantly louder than the aforementioned JD engine plus finding parts for the JD will be much easier than for the IVECO.
.
 
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Dont do it. Save the money you will spend on each item and buy a used boat when your funds and the boat prices equal. You will probably boat sooner.
I know several people who have built boats and they would not do it again.

You will be paying retail for stuff boat makers buy wholesale so all you save is labor. A depreciated boat offsets that and can usually be bought in good condition. Selling a home built boat later is always difficult and life sometimes gets in the way of finishing long term projects. A partially built boat is even harder to sell.
 
You cant go too far wrong with a John Deere for turbo or Perkins-Sabre M92B 4 cyl. for non-turbo.
 
Since you are home building, you are not limited to MARPOL/EPA regulations for the engine. A guy built a steel Swan 55 designed by Buehler and he used a rebuilt Cummins engine.

Later,
Dan
 
How big will your boat be. LWL and displacement will allow you to get a good estimate of the power you will need. There are lots of calculators around to estimate power needs. For a 38' Duck you could get away with a 50 hp engine if you limit yourself to 6.5 knots or so. Engines in that range are available from Beta, Yanmar, Westerbeke, Volvo-Penta, Nanni, Vetus, etc. Cost including the transmission will run around $10KUS.
 
As I understand them, Ducks are full displacement hulls and are heavy. The 38 should weigh at least 50,000 lbs. Boatdiesel has a calculator but one good rule of thumb is that it takes 1.5 hp per thousand lbs of displacement to push a displacement hull to hull speed.


So that gives you about 75 hp and you probably won't cruise at that speed much. You probably will cruise at 40 hp or so. But to get out of harms way and punch through a sea way you need a little more. You need an engine that can run continuously at 75 hp and 100 for a few hours in a pinch. So you could get by with less than 125, but not much.


You can't beat the JD 4045 engine. Slow reving and it has a balance shaft for smoothness. The Beta might work, but is a higher reving engine. Forget Yanmar and Volvo- their engines are small displacement, high reving. A remanned Cummins 210 hp is overkill but a very nice engine. You get an essentially new engine with full factory warranty for probably less than the JD. But it is longer and heavier.


DD's prices above are in the ball park for a JD. A Cummins will probably be a few thousand less.


David
 
Scot:

Disregard my recommendation for the JD 4045TFM85. At the time of my posting I didn't think about the fact that your DD is only 41' and it's made of wood. It will be much lighter than my future 53' DD492 made from steel weighing in at about 45 tons.

.
 
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Great start, thanks. The 41 foot duck is around 46000 lbs full displacement. According to Buehler he recommends a 75 hp. I feel comfortable with the technical info as he has provided all the numbers and ratios.

However I talked with a marina downstate and he provided a price list for an engine in comparable size from beta with a $24,000 price tag with transmission. The Deere salesaman in Ohio I spoke gave me a ball park around $35,000 for the 4045.

These are all brand new engine prices but from the sounds of what I'm hearing from a couple guys here I'm getting quoted really high. Am I missing something or are they smelling a sucker?
 
You have plenty of time to shop for an engine. I think the JD 4045 looks pretty good even if you only use 50-70hp.

On my build I bought the engine six months into the project, and it sat in the shop for another six months before I set it in the hull. Could have waited a year into it, but a smokin' deal came up on a used engine and I jumped.
 
Boats and Harbors

You may want to watch the classifieds at Boats and Harbors. There is plenty of bigger stuff now, but who knows...

Boats & Harbors
 
BTW, I found my engine in Boats n Harbors. Turned out it was listed by an engine company I trusted, but ad did not identify the company.
 
Scott,
I bought a Mitsubishi from Klassen Engines (now Yukon Power Systems). These people have been serving the fishing fleet in BC Canada and Alaska for about 50 years. Being a commercial supplier they avoid a lot of the extra marketing effort needed in the pleasure boat segment of this industry.

Yukon sells Isuzu and Mitsubishi engines. I cruise at 2300rpm (rated at 3000) and have no need or desire for a slower turning engine. At that rpm I'm at a 50% load. My 4cyl engine is quite smooth and runs on PolyFlex engine mounts. My boat is powered at 5hp per ton of displacement and it's probably a tad more than needed.

Yukon is located in Seattle. Phone is 206 784 0148. You'll be treated much like a commercial fisherman and enjoy their pricing advantage.
 
Traveling or shipping from Seattle to NY is a pretty long haul. Both for delivery and warranty/parts service.
 
Scott, you have a great opportunity available to you as a homebuilder - you don't need to install an EPA compliant T3 (electronic) engine. I would have to say absolutely 100% do not install one. A professionally rebuilt engine will cost 1/2 the amount (even with core charge) and those mechanical T1 engines get at least 10% better fuel economy and are more reliable.

The fact that your boat will be a "homebuilt" and in wood means the reality is very little resale value. So don't blow big wads on a new JD or Yanmar or anything.

However, alot of advise above is very good. It is perhaps an equal amount of satisfaction to pickup a project boat and rebuilt it completely.
 
scott2640 said:
The Deere salesaman in Ohio I spoke gave me a ball park around $35,000 for the 4045.

These are all brand new engine prices but from the sounds of what I'm hearing from a couple guys here I'm getting quoted really high. Am I missing something or are they smelling a sucker?
Click to expand...

Not a true apples to apples comparison but we paid about that for our Ram Big Horn 4x4 with the EcoDiesel. Sounds like boater price gouging to me.
 
A good running used engine with gear around 150hp goes for $5-15k depending on model, age and condition. For another $5-10k it can be stripped in a shop and completely inspected/refreshed/rebuilt.

I'd budget 15k tops. Plenty of time to shop. Go for a larger displacement slower turning engine, and don't be afraid to get a six, they are smoother.
 
In the 75 hp range take a look at the Beta 75 and the Phasor P4-70-3300. Both are based on Kubota diesels. Based on prices I got back in 2010-2011 for engines in this size range, I think you will find new engines with transmissions for under $20K with the Phasor engines being a bit cheaper. Both of the engines mentioned above are rated 75 hp at 2,600 rpms, which would let you cruise at 7-7.5 knots at 2,000 rpms or a bit less (depends on prop). Both engines are 4 cylinder engines in the 3.3 liter range.
 
This is the price list I got for the Beta Engines
 

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Hope this is not to far off the subject. How do I know what percentage of engine load I am cruising at? I'm confused on this, and concerned I'm under loading the engine. Is this a percent of RPM or HP?
My boat FD 14 tons, I cruise at 2100 and continuos is 3600 and full redline 3800. Engine is 62hp and I cruise at 6 knots and get real good fuel mileage.
 
Always surprised at how low a hp Buehler specs for his boats, and I know there have been comments that his specs are too low.
How about a Ford Lehman? Rock solid, easy too work on, good support, easy to find used ones.
Building a wood DD is a big project. Keep in mind that the market for wood boats is small. The value of a wood DD is considerably less than the identical boat in steel.
 
load depends on propping. If you can reach and are limited to rated rpm then it is assumed that the engine is producing rated hp at that point. At lower rpms the load reduces along the propeller load curve. Most engin specs include one. That will also show fuel used at that prop load. If you dont have a prop load curve youcan guess using this equation for prop load.

(RPM/Fullrpm)^2.5=percent load.
the exponent 2.5 is a commonly used prop curve estimate. 2.7 and even 3 are used by some makers. try it for yourself and see that there is little difference between 2.5 and 2,7 exponents.

e.g.
(2000/2600)^2.5=.51 or 51% load

Just plug the quation using your numbers into google
 
low HP is fine for perfect conditions but add wind on the bow or choppy head seas and more HP is required to maintain speed.
 
freshalaska said:
Hope this is not to far off the subject. How do I know what percentage of engine load I am cruising at? I'm confused on this, and concerned I'm under loading the engine. Is this a percent of RPM or HP?
Click to expand...

JD defines the load as follows:
Load factor is the actual fuel burned over a period of time divided by the full-power fuel consumption for the same period of time. For example, if an engine burns 160 liters of fuel during an eight-hour run, and the full-power fuel consumption is 60 liters per hour, the load factor is 160 liters / (60 liters per hour x 8 hours) = 33.3 percent.
Click to expand...
Later,
Dan
 
freshalaska said:
Hope this is not to far off the subject. How do I know what percentage of engine load I am cruising at? I'm confused on this, and concerned I'm under loading the engine. Is this a percent of RPM or HP?
My boat FD 14 tons, I cruise at 2100 and continuos is 3600 and full redline 3800. Engine is 62hp and I cruise at 6 knots and get real good fuel mileage.
Click to expand...

%load is a bit confusing. Is it calculated from the rated power of the engine at full throttle or is it calculated from the maximum power available at the rpms you are operating at? The two references will give quite different results. I prefer to calculated %load from the power available at the operating rpms read from the engine power curve. To do that to easiest method is to use fuel burn. The engine's fuel consumption curve will give you a good estimate of the relationship between fuel burn per hour and horsepower. If you then measure your fuel burn and divide it by the maximum fuel burn at the operating rpms you will get % power.
 
Ski in NC said:
Traveling or shipping from Seattle to NY is a pretty long haul. Both for delivery and warranty/parts service.
Click to expand...

Ski,
A good proportion of Yukon's customers are as far away in Alaska and they are very good at supporting them. Few of their customers are close by.
The east coast may be different ... I don't know but I doubt it.
 
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