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Old 11-12-2015, 08:09 AM   #81
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manyboats, Those are photos of Prairie 29 hulls, Not my boat.
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Old 11-12-2015, 10:37 AM   #82
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Gurryman,
I thought you had a Prarie. I see you have a lobster type on the trailer. I was directing my comments to Prarie owners in general. But your name was on the post w the pics .. made assumptions.
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Old 11-27-2015, 12:07 AM   #83
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Willow B here. I purchased my P29 in Boston and made it thru the CCC south to NY Harbor, then up the Hudson to the Erie Canal. Then crossed Lakes Erie, Huron & Michigan to Larson's in Waukegan, Il. The record high water in the Illinois River and Mississippi near St Louis stopped us short. Willow B was winterized and stored indoors until June 2016, when we will continue to the Calumet/Joliet Channel to the Illinois River. Then down the Mighty Mississippi, then it's 500 miles upstream up the Ohio.

It's been a great trip so far. I'm looking forward to next June.

The previous owner lived aboard for 8 years. He relocated to the Virgin Islands, therefore was a very motivated seller.

The P29 is the perfect trawler for us. With the 4-108, She makes 5.8k in slack water @ 2500-2600 rpm. She burns approx 1 gal/hr. With such a short/wide hull design, she is pitchy in a head sea(short) and yaws quite a bit at cruise(wide). My anchor locker is loaded with chain and I believe this weight adds to the yaw issue.

She is a full displacement hull with a deep shoe. When I push the throttle ahead the yaw gets worse. The boat 'likes' the 6 knot range. Any faster is beyond theoretical hull speed anyway.

Once at our home port many issues will be addressed. The plan is to make annual trips down the Tenn-Tom with a destination of the Tx & La coasts & Rivers.

I started the blog to keep family and friends updated. ---> willowb.us.

Willow B standing by Ch 16/9
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Old 11-27-2015, 11:49 AM   #84
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Willow B,
Sounds like you've got her propped nice and light. What gear ratio and what prop?

Your comments sound quite familiar to this Willard owner. Yup a short boat is probably more susceptible to excessive rode weight. Balance is golden but excess weight I prefer in the stern. The solution to the rode weight in a word .. nylon.
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Old 11-27-2015, 07:47 PM   #85
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The boat IS propped correct. All documentation is onboard in Waukegan & I don't remember the prop diameter/pitch. It is a very small 3- blade. The spare is a 4-blade, which leads me to believe one of the PO's did a bit of experimentation. The gear is a Velvet Drive with1.9:1 reduction.

My very short list of of only 3 improvements once we get her to her home port is lose the chain and replace with nylon. I believe the gypsy will handle 9/16" rode.

The other two projects are the holding tank. Current system is a defunct (small) MSD system that needs to go. To accomplish this task, the v-berth must be disassembled.

Which leads me to the other (last) improvement. Redesign of the v-berth/stowage below.

Other than these few modifications, the P29 is OUR perfect boat.
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Old 11-27-2015, 09:34 PM   #86
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On Slip Aweigh the PO installed a lectrasan with approximately a 25 gallon holding tank. As far as the Boss is concerned that's the absolute best part of the boat. Well.... That and the memory foam mattress' we sleep on. To install the MSD tank and vac pump the lower port drawer had to be sacrificed. They just screwed the door front on, thus removing the actual drawer from the equation. The other drawer they shortened immensely. But the STBD drawers are all full size. And coincidentally we have the same prop selection. The 3 blade is ON and the 4 blade is in the lazarette.
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Old 11-27-2015, 11:11 PM   #87
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Sounds like the PO did you a favor by installing the Lectrasan for you. I currently have an electric Jabsco head. I plan to install a straightforward holding tank downstream.

I plan on losing both of the port and the midship drawers and retaining the stbd drawers in tact. The area between the berths shall be consumed by dry stores. The hanging locker below the helm has already been converted to pantry. All (should) balance out nicely once we shed over 200' of chain in the anchor locker. The sbbd side of the v-berth shall become clothing racks. I do like the memory foam comfort as well and plan to incorporate as well.

All plans are cast in warm butter and subject to change.
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Old 12-26-2015, 06:28 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willow-B View Post
The boat IS propped correct. All documentation is onboard in Waukegan & I don't remember the prop diameter/pitch. It is a very small 3- blade. The spare is a 4-blade, which leads me to believe one of the PO's did a bit of experimentation. The gear is a Velvet Drive with1.9:1 reduction.

My very short list of of only 3 improvements once we get her to her home port is lose the chain and replace with nylon. I believe the gypsy will handle 9/16" rode.

The other two projects are the holding tank. Current system is a defunct (small) MSD system that needs to go. To accomplish this task, the v-berth must be disassembled.

Which leads me to the other (last) improvement. Redesign of the v-berth/stowage below.

Other than these few modifications, the P29 is OUR perfect boat.

The gear is 2.9:1 reduction... My bad. I don't know the current pitch as one of the POs experimented. I'm debating adding an inch of pitch (while hauled) to see if it helps or hurts. Any experienced advice is welcome.
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Old 12-26-2015, 09:46 PM   #89
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Willow-B,
One should observe that there is an optimum pitch/dia ratio for every boat given the variables. A very significant one being the maximum diameter prop there is room for. The number of blades, blade aspect ratio, boat speed, blade tip speed ect ect can/should be considered. Numericly about a .75-1 (pitch/dia ratio) is good but the ratio varies w the other variables.
Numerous trawlers are equiped w too much dia and blade area. Eats up power and delivers too little thrust in return. A 3 blade will probably be best for most trawlers.
A good source of information is Michigan Wheel. They can be very helpful.
And if you're not burdened w too much money sometimes the best prop is the one you've got.
I have a prop that is not the most efficient design. The advantages of smoothness and reverse thrust trumps 2 or 3 percent efficency loss.
Lots of variables.
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Old 12-26-2015, 11:09 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willow-B View Post
Willow B here. I purchased my P29 in Boston and made it thru the CCC south to NY Harbor, then up the Hudson to the Erie Canal. Then crossed Lakes Erie, Huron & Michigan to Larson's in Waukegan, Il. The record high water in the Illinois River and Mississippi near St Louis stopped us short. Willow B was winterized and stored indoors until June 2016, when we will continue to the Calumet/Joliet Channel to the Illinois River. Then down the Mighty Mississippi, then it's 500 miles upstream up the Ohio.

It's been a great trip so far. I'm looking forward to next June.

The previous owner lived aboard for 8 years. He relocated to the Virgin Islands, therefore was a very motivated seller.

The P29 is the perfect trawler for us. With the 4-108, She makes 5.8k in slack water @ 2500-2600 rpm. She burns approx 1 gal/hr. With such a short/wide hull design, she is pitchy in a head sea(short) and yaws quite a bit at cruise(wide). My anchor locker is loaded with chain and I believe this weight adds to the yaw issue.

She is a full displacement hull with a deep shoe. When I push the throttle ahead the yaw gets worse. The boat 'likes' the 6 knot range. Any faster is beyond theoretical hull speed anyway.

Once at our home port many issues will be addressed. The plan is to make annual trips down the Tenn-Tom with a destination of the Tx & La coasts & Rivers.

I started the blog to keep family and friends updated. ---> willowb.us.

Willow B standing by Ch 16/9
Willow- We have a 27 foot Marben trawler which has a 10 foot beam at the widest point although the stern tapers to 9 foot beam across the deck. We draw 3 feet and consider our hull F/D (Eric-) As I review your post I agree to the 'Hobby Horse' into head seas. We recently pulled a Perkins 4-154 (58 HP) out and installed a running Perkins 4-236 in its place.(85HP)
The 154 had a 3;1 and we changed to a 2;1 with the 236 and kept the same wheel. We are honorably over wheeled by forum standards. Our top RPM is 2000 on a 2800 rated RPM scale. Now Willow, we should have a lower hull speed than you yet when we use the Vicprop formula

:Vicprop - Propeller Calculator

we have and do cruise, at the hull speed of 6.9 knots the formula produces. We run at 1400 RPM so we still have a safe margin of 600 RPM which as you indicate, is the best setting as anymore throttle just creates water displacement, noise, and smoke, very little improvement in speed. We consume 1.3 gallons per hour. We think we are fine with this over wheel results.
Okay- Now here is an area to compare. We have a limited fuel capacity of 90 gallons, 48 gallons of water. The engine/gear weight is 1500#. We have little in the area of anchor chain, 25 feet, so that is not a factor by itself.
Due to the "Hobby Horse" effect combined with a horrid snap roll in the for mentioned weight factors, we were alarmed at the motion of the boat, unsafe not but very uncomfortable would be fair.
As a result of many suggestions from our Forum members, all in good intent and welcome, we were fortunate to local locally, 50# lead ingots. We purchased in total 1300# and installed them thus, We added one 50# directly to the chain locker floor. At the junction of the v-berth there is a floor locker cabin, we added one 50# to the floor of that locker. Moving back we installed
6- 50# ingots above the keel in a existing alley. Under the engine/gear we placed 4-50# ingots. Along side the engine bed-port side, we placed 6-50# ingots favoring aft abeam the reduction gear. We placed 4-50# ingots on the Starboard side mid ship of the engine (Aft of this weight is located the 11 gallon hot water tank which offsets. The remaining ingots were placed in the lazeret evenly aside the rudder stock.
The outcome is a perfectly balanced boat!!! We cut the Hobby Horse down to nil, the boat cuts more than lifts. Following seas affect us sitll yet at a lessor degree, the yawl is slowed way down. We can ride beam seas in a fashion where the boat rides up, the wave or swell moves UNDER, the boat remains in a vertical stance, any roll is gentle and slow.
All of this weight on top of the as built of 1500# of lead in the keel, and the boat burns not enough additional fuel to make a noticeable difference.

Here is a site of a sister boat that we almost purchased:


1978 Marben Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser Title

Would you be kind enough to view the photos and comment as to how close all of this is to your boat/conditions? Note the fuel and such in this boat and understand the weight difference between our boat and this one due to tankage alone.

Long response, sorry

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Old 12-26-2015, 11:15 PM   #91
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Willow- Forgot to mention our wheel which is 22DX16P.RH 3 blades
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Old 12-26-2015, 11:56 PM   #92
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Al,
I doubt if the Marben is a FD boat. If it was you're cruising at a speed that I can just barely reach at WOT w a shorter boat. Should'nt be possible. I do however think the Marben is very close to FD and w the power at hand you would'nt want FD. You would'nt get close to a 7 knot cruise if it were.

I'm quite sure you showed us a pic of the Marben's stern. It's been quite awhile ago but my immage recollection says just a bit SD.

But you've got so much power it's possible. You're engine has well over double the displacement of mine. And a bit over twice the hp.

There is a Willard w an 80hp Cummins and the owner says he gets 8 knots. I assume that WOT and i've seen a pic of his boat underway w wake WAY bigger than anything Willy can muster.
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Old 12-27-2015, 12:23 AM   #93
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Eric, it was included in the earlier post:

1978 Marben Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser Title

Maybe it will not open.

With the 58 HP Perkins, we were able to obtain 6.5 at 2150 RPM same wheel as now. I don't care a hill of beans on F/D S/D, the damn boat will not plane if you put 1000HP into it!!! The best it will do with 85 HP is 7.5 at WOT, the stern sucks down so far that the boarding step is under water. With the 58 HP at WOT the near same result.

If it would help maybe TED would peek at the hull photos and settle it. I am comfortable with the boat no matter this tit for tat.
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Old 12-27-2015, 09:16 AM   #94
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Yeah, that's one source I've heard of. If you get to know the distinctive paint color the reefer guys used, you can identify one of those surplus engines, even if it's been painted over - the base coat usually shows somewhere.

The Perkins was definitely used in the 26 foot motor whaleboats for a long time. Most Navy ships carried at least one and often more than one. I remember one dark & stormy night about 40 years ago when another vessel needed assistance...

Now-a-days there are tons of Isuzu, Mitsubishi and Kubota engines hitting the market from retired reefers. They would make great power plants for a modest size coastal cruiser.

I repowered my old Albin-25 with a new Isuzu 3CB industrial engine by adapting a seawater pump from a Yanmar and a heat exchanger/expansion tank from an Onan generator. I made a stainless sea water injection elbow in my shop and wired in some gauges. It made a great little unit, around 28 HP.

That boat would do 6.3 knots on 0.4 gph. I came from Portland, Maine to Dighton, Massachusetts, through the Cape Cod Canal and Narragansett Bay on 16 gallons of fuel.

Now I'm looking forward to more cruising adventures with a little more civilized comforts and better sea-keeping ability with the Prairie.

Cappy - have you cruised the Coast of Maine?

J.S.
What do you need to know about cruising in maine I lived up there 5 years while attending maine maritime academy
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Old 12-27-2015, 09:23 AM   #95
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Our Prairie hull 50 has a 63hp Yanmar in it and it will push her with the bottom clean between 7 and 10kts depending on wind and current. Our prairie is loaded up more that a stock one as our interior is all solid teak and we have a 8kw gen 12 gallon water heater washer dryer and custom hardtop. The original owner who we are friends with told us the boat came with a mercruiser gas engine and it would run over 12kts then but would get squirley our yanmar pushes it nicely and sips fuel at about a gallon an hour but we get there in comfort.
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Old 12-27-2015, 11:35 AM   #96
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Al,
Thanks for the pics and my memory was mostly correct. Bilges are a little softer than I had remembered but more importantly the transom is submerged about 8" and the run of the bottom is basically straight. Yes 200hp will plane this hull but at a high angle of attack due to the extremely soft chines.

salormike's boat and yours looks to be about perfectly powered for the hull. When you get a chance post the dia and pitch of the prop. If it's a 3 blade it can probably be optimized unless there's too much blade area. Even then one can cut down the blades and optimize the pitch.

I went back to you're link and from the pics it looks like there's prop clearence. However I assume w the little Perkins the prop is probably too much (big).
For your boat 22" dia is too much prop w the 2-1 gear. I'd cut it down as a knee jerk reaction. Going to a lower gear would be better but props are cheaper than gears. But w either the cut down prop or a different gear ratio you've got plenty of power

Yes I'd like to hear TAD's take on it too.
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Old 12-27-2015, 11:52 AM   #97
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Al,
Thanks for the pics and my memory was mostly correct. Bilges are a little softer than I had remembered but more importantly the transom is submerged about 8" and the run of the bottom is basically straight. Yes 200hp will plane this hull but at a high angle of attack due to the extremely soft chines.

salormike's boat and yours looks to be about perfectly powered for the hull. When you get a chance post the dia and pitch of the prop. If it's a 3 blade it can probably be optimized unless there's too much blade area. Even then one can cut down the blades and optimize the pitch.

I went back to you're link and from the pics it looks like there's prop clearence. However I assume w the little Perkins the prop is probably too much (big).
We got a new 3 bladed wheel that was spec and tuned to the boat we sent all the measurements to mfj and they sent us a prop we picked up over a kt with the new prop

ill get the numbers for you when i go down to the boat later.
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Old 12-27-2015, 01:21 PM   #98
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Quote:
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Al,
Thanks for the pics and my memory was mostly correct. Bilges are a little softer than I had remembered but more importantly the transom is submerged about 8" and the run of the bottom is basically straight. Yes 200hp will plane this hull but at a high angle of attack due to the extremely soft chines.

salormike's boat and yours looks to be about perfectly powered for the hull. When you get a chance post the dia and pitch of the prop. If it's a 3 blade it can probably be optimized unless there's too much blade area. Even then one can cut down the blades and optimize the pitch.

I went back to you're link and from the pics it looks like there's prop clearence. However I assume w the little Perkins the prop is probably too much (big).
For your boat 22" dia is too much prop w the 2-1 gear. I'd cut it down as a knee jerk reaction. Going to a lower gear would be better but props are cheaper than gears. But w either the cut down prop or a different gear ratio you've got plenty of power

Yes I'd like to hear TAD's take on it too.

Eric, You consistently continue to miss the one important component we desired and acquired with this combination of the 4-236 with 2:1 gear retaining the original diameter/pitch wheel. QUITE!

We so enjoy the ability to reach hull speed at a very reasonable RPM.
We retain the working margin of 600 RPM between cruise and WOT assuring the engine is not being abused.

We do not have any intentions of changing any component of the running operation. Thanks for the suggestions. perhaps other forum members will utilize the information.

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Old 12-27-2015, 06:17 PM   #99
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The 4-236 Perkins is anything but a "little engine". It can swing a pretty big prop, especially in a 27 foot boat.
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Old 12-27-2015, 06:30 PM   #100
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Al I must have you confused w a Willow-B. And perhaps I've got a bit of Andrew w the steel boat mixed in. I'm out.
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