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Old 08-17-2014, 04:47 PM   #21
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Or the galley where they never change the deep fryer oil either...or maybe that's what he meant...
And from my experience they never really change out the coffee either. They add new coffee to the old coffee, but never really start fresh. Or at least they didn't on that troop ship I was on anyway, heading for the Frozen Chosin a long, long time ago. :-)
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Old 08-17-2014, 07:12 PM   #22
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And from my experience they never really change out the coffee either. They add new coffee to the old coffee, but never really start fresh. Or at least they didn't on that troop ship I was on anyway, heading for the Frozen Chosin a long, long time ago. :-)
WOW!!!! You musta only been 6 when you signed up...

Maybe you knew my uncle...yeah I know I get the same all the time...you must know Bob...he was in the USCG too back in 1989.

Anyway my uncle was a pioneer USMC helo guy over there...pretty well known in the USMC. Capt. Gus Luddeke

Gustave F. Lueddeke, Jr., Captain, United States Marine Corps
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Old 08-18-2014, 01:22 PM   #23
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Capt.Bill: i have thought about doing oil analysis as you suggest. Who do use for this? As for running the boat at the dock during winter months, I have run it at the dock but I usually take the boat out on the lake (my doc is on Lake Washington) and run it hard (like 2200 rpm, normally I cruise at 1600 to 1800 rpm) for 1/2 hour or so until the operating temps are reached. I have wondered though if running the boat in gear at the doc is bad for the transmission (mine is ZF).
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Old 08-18-2014, 01:51 PM   #24
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I have wondered though if running the boat in gear at the doc is bad for the transmission (mine is ZF).
Neither the engine nor the marine gear know if they are at the dock or in open water. However, it's not enough just to idle or high idle at the dock if you're going to do that. The engine needs a load on it to get up to normal operating temperature. We've found that with our engines and props, 1300-1400 rpm is about the minimum that will get the engine into the right temperature range, at least judging by the coolant gauge.

The only warning we were given regarding running our our own boat in gear at the dock is not to run at higher rpm in reverse, as the BW Velvet drive is not a very strong transmission in reverse. I don't know about ZF transmissions. Running in reverse on one engine let us run both engines at the same time without over-straining the mooring lines. So we don't do that anymore and instead run one at a time.

All in all, though, it's going to be better if you can actually take the boat out, and since you're on Lake Washington I suspect you can easily do that whenever you want as the lake never gets very rough except in the most severe storms.

While an oil analysis can be helpful, a one-time analysis isn't much of a benefit other than to show you the state of the oil at that particular moment. Oil analyses are used to determine trends. They are used a lot in aviation, particularly as an engine is approaching TBO. A regular oil analysis can show if there is an increase in metal particles in the oil and other such things. For example, there are programs by which an aviation engine can be run longer than its stated TBO if oil analyses are done at a specified interval and the oil is found to be within specific parameters. When it exceeds these parameters, the engine must be overhauled.

I'm not sure how beneficial an oil analysis program would be with a recreational boat that doesn't rack up a lot of hours every years unless it's a pretty high-time engine and the operator wants to monitor its health. Otherwise, unless the engine was always being run hard or abused or the servicing was spotty, the operator would simply keep getting the same results over and over. And the chances are that an operator who felt an oil analysis on a regular basis is important wouldn't be the kind of operator to abuse his/her engine(s) anyway.
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:07 PM   #25
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Capt.Bill: i have thought about doing oil analysis as you suggest. Who do use for this? .
Your engine manufacturer may offer the service or try:

Marine

Who ever you use you need to make sure they do a TBN test along with the rest of the tests.
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Old 08-19-2014, 08:00 AM   #26
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I have wondered though if running the boat in gear at the doc is bad for the transmission (mine is ZF).

Running in gear at the dock may not harm the engine or tranny , but it may well get you thrown out of the marina.

Scouring , creating a channel with a prop is old hat , the marina may get VERY upset if your prop wash reduces the draft in nearby waters.

This is really easy to do, even at idle ,
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:47 AM   #27
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"Idling at 1400rpm" isn't a load Marin .. It's a high idle. I think it would be 5 times as good to go for a run as suggested and I suspect/think your description of the weather is grossly exaggerated. Buck up like Tom White would say. Seriously I've done the same in Alaska in your defense.

I thought oil changing had a lot to do w carbon buildup. Much much less so w gas engines. They say that's why the lube oil in a diesel gets so black so fast. And the theory is based on carbon being an abrasive. Would'nt put aluminum oxide in my oil .. or sand. Is that the real deal or bunk?

Also I have read on occasion that oil sitting in a crankcase w a bit of moisture promotes chemical breakdown of the oil. Is that bunk too.

I suspect a lot of automotive recent changes are being arbitrarily transferred over to marine diesels. Tom White is right that doing what the manufacturers say is almost always right. And if we're not inclined to do it now later on we'll almost all be glad we did.
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Old 08-19-2014, 02:35 PM   #28
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"Idling at 1400rpm" isn't a load Marin .. It's a high idle...I suspect/think your description of the weather is grossly exaggerated. Buck up like Tom White would say.
Well, you obviously have no clue what the weather and water conditions can be like in Bellingham Bay, particularly during the winter. We've been boating there for more than 16 years now, and we do. Winters are actually getting windier. This is not just our observation but that of other boaters we know who keep their boats in Bellingham and try to boat year round.

You also have no clue what my work and travel schedule is like and how they match up to the weather. We don't have the luxury of going boating whenever we want. So we do what's necessary to keep the boat from just sitting with no use at all for weeks at a time.

Given that the cruising rpm typically used with these engines is 1500-1800 rpm, I would say that 1400 rpm in gear is a "load." 1000 rpm is considered "high idle" for the FL120. Idle rpm is, or should be, 600 rpm.

The engines do not come up to temperature at anything less than 1300-1400 rpm. At 600 rpm the coolant temps get perhaps half way to normal and go no higher, normal being 180-190 degrees).

Since the engines get to normal operating temperature by the coolant gauges at 1400 rpm, and the EGT gauges also get to their normal cruise setting, the same settings they get to at at our typical cruise rpm of 1650 rpm/8 knots, I would say that 1400 rpm is not any sort of "idle" setting.

It might be for a modern, high-speed diesel. But for a 1950s thumper like the Ford Dorset (FL120) 1400 with the load of the prop is definitely not any sort of "idle."

But you can call it whatever you want. You can call it "stopped" if you want to. It makes no difference to me or the engines what term you want to stick on that particular rpm. The point is that the load on the engines at that rpm is sufficient to get the engine temps and EGT readings up into their normal operating range, and that's all that matters.
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Old 08-19-2014, 02:36 PM   #29
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I mentioned earlier than on boats we never reach time before hours, but we do have the problem on cars. We only put about 4000 miles a year on our cars. We change the oil and filter yearly.
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Old 08-19-2014, 04:57 PM   #30
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I replace filters often, but not the oil. I send the oil for an analysis; and if problems do not show up in it, I do not change it. I have over 300 hours on the current oil change. Two oil analyses into it, not a single issue. Here is some good reading:
Seems to me it would be cheaper to change oil than do two analysis in 300 hours.

I had an engine rep suggest it is better to base oil changes on fuel consumption rather than hours. Run the engines harder and a lot, use more fuel therefore change oil more often. Run easy and rarely, not so much fuel and longer oil change interval. The acid, I've been told, is an issue for engines laid up for extended periods.
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Old 08-19-2014, 06:50 PM   #31
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JW/PS-not to get too far adrift here, but my Dad was a Chosin survivor. He was also a USMC Captain at the time, artillery battery commander. He received a Bronze Star, Silver Star with Oak Leaf cluster and 3 Purple Hearts for his time there. He was a USNA grad and a career Marine retiring as a brigadier general. He would tell us about having to light fires under trucks to thaw the oil before trucks could be started (had to get something about oil in here!)

For many years up to his death a few years ago, he was a member of a Reunion group, The Chosin Few.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:11 PM   #32
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THD--- Your father was obviusly a remarkable man, and it's the service of guys like that that enable the rest of us to do the things we do today.

With regards to the viscocity of oil, I read an article in New Yorker magazine a number of years ago about the truckers who took oilfield equipment from the manufacturers in Texas to the then-new North Slope oilfield in Alaska. They did this in winter when the Haul Road from Fairbanks to the wells was more solid.

The trucks were never shut off from the time they left Texas to the time they got back. At night on the Alaska Hiighway in BC, the Yukon, and Alaska, the drivers had to leave their motel rooms every couple of hours and run the trucks back and forth in the parking lots for a bit to keep the lube oil in the transmissions and differentials limber.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:17 PM   #33
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Am I missing something here? you have a nice boat and are whining about a once per year oil change?... Come on, when you bought your boat, surely you knew it had to be maintained. Get a Gulf Coast Filter set up and regular oil analysis, and don't change oil until they say it is due. Regular oil changes are unnecessary with oil analysis, and GCF.
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:08 PM   #34
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Am I missing something here? you have a nice boat and are whining about a once per year oil change?... Come on, when you bought your boat, surely you knew it had to be maintained. Get a Gulf Coast Filter set up and regular oil analysis, and don't change oil until they say it is due. Regular oil changes are unnecessary with oil analysis, and GCF.
Well, our cars say 12500 miles or one year and 10000 miles or a year. We change them annually. If I used a boat that little, I'd do the same. I'd probably still get the oil analyzed simply because it can forewarn sometimes. I'd definitely do one or the other. I'm not going to risk my engines by shortcutting routine maintenance even if it might be unnecessary. Now I don't listen to the car service centers saying 3000 or 5000 miles or six months. And I wouldn't listen to shipyards saying every six months. I just follow the manufacturers recommendation.
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Old 08-20-2014, 12:49 PM   #35
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"Idling at 1400rpm" isn't a load Marin .. It's a high idle.
Uh oH. I think that's my normal cruise rpm.
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Old 08-20-2014, 05:05 PM   #36
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One seems to need to run a diesel engine in the upper RPMs to create a decent load. On my JD, idle (750 RPM) moves the boat at half speed but there is less than a 10% load on the engine. "Normal" cruise speed of 1800 RPM (one knot under hull speed) equals 42% load. "Full" cruise (hull) speed is reached at 2200 RPM with 75% load. 1400 RPM creates only 22% load.
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Old 08-20-2014, 06:36 PM   #37
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Test kits at Blackstone Labs are free, analysis is $25 + shipping cost. Eight quarts of Shell Rotella 15w-40 cost me $30 at Pep Boys last Saturday. Been a year since I changed oil & filter, will do so Saturday. Don't plan to test the oil. If something in the Perkins breaks, I'll deal with it then.
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Old 08-20-2014, 06:43 PM   #38
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I started Blackstone labs and think the analysis is worth it....early detection of fuel dilution or antifreeze in the oil is worth the 25 bucks even if every month...all the rest is icing on the cake.
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:43 AM   #39
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>One seems to need to run a diesel engine in the upper RPMs to create a decent load. On my JD, idle (750 RPM) moves the boat at half speed but there is less than a 10% load on the engine. "Normal" cruise speed of 1800 RPM (one knot under hull speed) equals 42% load. "Full" cruise (hull) speed is reached at 2200 RPM with 75% load. 1400 RPM creates only 22% load.<

Sounds like a perfect candidate for a cruising prop.
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Old 08-21-2014, 07:50 PM   #40
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JW/PS-

For many years up to his death a few years ago, he was a member of a Reunion group, The Chosin Few.
At the risk of a slight hijack, what is the 'Chosin', it's something I'm not familiar with
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