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Old 08-19-2012, 08:58 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Heat gun user here. I used one yesterday to remove the adhesive where I cut back some non-skid foot pads.

A torch might be appropriate for removing a stuck prop, but it's apt to discolor cleats and such that you might want to re-use.
Most ahesives, especially epoxy based only need a little over 300 deg F to start softening/breaking down...so only a gentle heating is required (well below ignition temps). Plus there are chemical removers for at least the 4200/5200 adhesives that have mixed results (which I'm sure are operator based due to the remover was invented by the guy who invented 5200 as I've read).

I'll be the first to admit that there's no right answer to this one. I favor high shock loaded areas to have an adhesive bedding, and other areas a bedding like dolphinite is great...if you don't want to use adhesive..great...there's no bedding police

Butyl tape seems to be in favor and I plan on using it a lot more (bought 2 rolls this spring...at least for my windows and anywhere the on/off cycle is probably a year or so...like flybridge instrument panel, shift/throttle quadrant, etc.... but on hand rails, antenna mounts, etc....I'll probably still use Sikaflex 291, 4200, or the likes....because of the constant working of the joint and the added strength if the joint.

I like the butyl tape as the 1000 little jobs that require you to put in a screw or remove/replace need a little caulk and opening as tube is a waste...keeping a foot of tape in your tool bag/box is handy and serves the purpose well
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:47 AM   #42
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Greetings,
I would disagree with Mr. psneeld who says "if a boater is totally inept, a heat gun is recommended". If a boater is THAT inept, get a professional to do it. I agree heat, from whatever source, DOES have it's place aboard. One simply has to realize what one wants to achieve, the dangers and limitations of said heat source and patience to apply the heat source in a proper and judicious manner to reach the desired end result.
As usual, the thread is morphing. Reading the instructions, although not a "guy thing" is a good place to start in determining end use as Mr. rwidman suggests. Follow that with a careful filtering of the information provided by end users offered in this thread and just bite the bullet. You'll find out after some period of time whether or not your choice was the best one, hopefully learn from your potential mistakes and try something that will hopefully work for you.
I've offered MY views based on MY experience but as I mentioned, will try butyl tape in the future based on testimonials offered in this thread.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:20 AM   #43
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rwidman,
"I would say the wise thing to do is to read the packaging" ......
I think the thing to do is consider all your previous experience, listen to all opinions such as Marin's dock talk and TF posts ...... and then read the package. It will NEVER say on a package that "this stuff is almost impossible to get off" and almost as likely to tell how to do it but you're right ... reading labels or packages will reveal information not likely to come to pass from people chatting. I'm for using all sources of information available. Sometimes the information on packages is most important and sometimes the information from casual chatter is most important. Depends on what you need at the moment.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:53 AM   #44
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It was late when I wrote that last post and sorry if I came off as a know it all, I'm far from it.

The information I received on Butyl that convinced me to go with it was gleaned from a shipwright in Maine who is a very successful re-builder fiberglass boats.
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Old 08-19-2012, 12:23 PM   #45
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Guys: take a look back at the photo in Post #7...which looks like a timber toerail sitting on a deck (or similar) with a bead of (failing) sealant. In the tropics, what would be the recommended product in this situation to avoid the Post #7 photo outcome?
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:37 PM   #46
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I've never heard of butyl tape. Do you heat it and make it flow? Cut some out like a gasket? What???
Sounds very good. Something I'd like to use. I'd say try but that sounds too much like an experiment.
Thank's to whomever brought it up.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:55 PM   #47
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Bedding Deck Hardware With Bed-It Butyl Tape - SailboatOwners.com

This is where I found the information I used when re-bedding my boat. It is FAR more informative than I could ever hope to be on the subject.

I just essentially followed these guidelines from memory and am very happy with the result. I haven't actually read this in several months.
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:16 PM   #48
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Next question: What should I use on SS screws in aluminum and to isolate SS fittings from aluminum. I will use SS pop-rivets where I can, but on the mast and poles for the paravanes I have to use threaded screws for winch bases, etc. I have used Duralac in the past but I can't get it here.
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:53 PM   #49
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Greetings,
Hmmm....48 posts on bedding. Any guesses on post count on this question? Keep 'em comin' Mr. Larry M.....All good info.
I'll start off....Zinc every screw.....Hahahaha
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:19 PM   #50
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All this talk of bedding and screws. No wonder we have dating services popping up in the ad spaces.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:22 PM   #51
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Larry, Tef-Gel is often suggested to keep stainless screws from reacting with aluminum.
I was taught what I think is a better trick. Back in my ill spent youth I spent a lot of time in an outboard repair shop. The outboards would come in with the stainless screws corroded tightly into the aluminum of the outboard block. It was always a fight to get the screws and bolts out the first time a motor came into the shop. If they came back for service again, they were easy to disassemble. When he put the motor back together, John, the mechanic, would coat the threads with Permatex Form-A-Gasket #3. It worked great. It also seemed to work like lock tite as the screws never came loose by accident.
There's another one for you RT.

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Old 08-23-2012, 02:30 PM   #52
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Folks will probably have teflon tape , which works for stuff you need to take apart.

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Old 08-23-2012, 02:47 PM   #53
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I don't have enough guts or believe Dolfinte should be used on everything. I will still use a polyurethane type caulk maybe some butyl tape where I want some adhesion and a sealant.

I agree. I don't think Dolfinite would be an appropriate bedding for handrail stanchions at all. The bedding surfaces are very small and Dolfinite dries out and crumbles when exposed to air over time. It's great for bedding bigger things, but for handrail stanchions, grab rails, etc. I do what the shipwrights I've talked to about this recommend, and that's to use Sikaflex (or 4200 or some other equivalent). Dolfinite is great where it's appropriate but in my opinion it is not appropriate for everything.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:58 PM   #54
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The stainless fastener in an aluminum structure is a real problem. In float planes, we simply don't use stainless fasteners in the float systems or the airframe. Ever. I've seen the results when someone did this and it's not pretty.

When we had PMI fabricate a short tower for our radar mount when we installed the Furuno a few years ago they supplied nylon sleeves that pressed into the holes and separated the stainless bolts, washers, and nuts used to hold the tower to the mount. And since the mount platform is stainless, too, I cut a rubber pad to go between it and the bottom of the tower.

I don't know what manufacturers do about fasteners in an aluminum sailboat mast. But it would sure be a problem if they weren't isolated electrically from the mast. I'm not sure just painting some sort of goop on it would work because when the fastener was installed, tightened down, etc. there would be metal to metal contact at some point if not many. Aluminum fasteners would solve the problem, of course, but I don't know if they'd be strong enough.
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Old 08-23-2012, 04:34 PM   #55
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Larry, Tef-Gel is often suggested to keep stainless screws from reacting with aluminum.
I was taught what I think is a better trick. Back in my ill spent youth I spent a lot of time in an outboard repair shop. The outboards would come in with the stainless screws corroded tightly into the aluminum of the outboard block. It was always a fight to get the screws and bolts out the first time a motor came into the shop. If they came back for service again, they were easy to disassemble. When he put the motor back together, John, the mechanic, would coat the threads with Permatex Form-A-Gasket #3. It worked great. It also seemed to work like lock tite as the screws never came loose by accident.
There's another one for you RT.
HopCar: The Tef-Gel is just what I'm looking for. It does the same thing as the Duralac which I can't find. :: Llewellyn Ryland :: Bringing Colour To Life :: Thanks.

I'll have to think about the Peratex Form-A-Gasket #3 and I actually do have some of that on board.

Marin: When we were in New Zealand, all the riggers and spar manufacturers used Dualac which started out as an aviation product for the reason you mentioned.

I notice that no one has mentioned silicone.

I know not to use it in most applications but... We just removed our open array Furuno radar and here's what they say.
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Old 08-23-2012, 08:11 PM   #56
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While the topic is about Caulking my favorite is 5200 which as you all know has many applications here is application 101 which i thought that you may be interested in.

In order to stop standard large 1" or 1~1/4 " shackle pins from seizing up solid from rust i apply some 5200 on the threads this prevents salt water from getting in .
A frozen shackle pin is almost impossible to free up resorting in showing it the hack saw
Un~ seating a shackle pin with 5200 on the threads is not an easy task either, some times i have to resort to a 24 " plumbers " Big billy". sure beats the hack saw.
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Old 08-24-2012, 03:20 PM   #57
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I've been re-bedding with butyl tape and am happy with the results. It's flexible and easily removable.
It looks like we'll be using a lot of butyl tape. Everything I read about it comes up positive for most of our applications. I've found that the RV industry uses a lot of butyl tape and New Found Metals has an instruction video on installing their portholes using butyl tape.



.
FYI below came from the Compass Marine article. The adhesion numbers are interesting. He refers to 5200 as Satan's Glue. I can see why.


Tube Caulks - When you need to use a tube caulk for deck fittings choose one with LOW ADHESION. Polysulfides like Life-Calk are generally the lowest in adhesion but Sikaflex 291 @ 260 PSI and 295 UV @ 160 PSI are both less than 3M 4200 @ 300 PSI or 3M UV 4000 @ 300 PSI and a better choice IMHO. I generally prefer Sikaflex 295 UV for deck stuff and Sika 291 for below water, both 295 UV and 291 are polyurethanes with a 500% elongation rating. ...3M 5200 and its gelcoat destroying 700+/- PSI adhesion...
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Old 08-24-2012, 06:49 PM   #58
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As a plumber I've had as much professional experience as anyone on this forum caulking and much more than most. Point is I had no idea what to use and didn't like what everyone was recommending so I went hunting on the web.

I've used Butyl tape for years on RV's and had some on the shelf. When I decided to re-bed my hardware never gave it a thought though. Went to the boat shop and they sold me a tube of 5200 for $15 and said this will do it. Read the tube at home and didn't like what I saw.

Researched forums and lots of folks liked Sikaflex, couldn't understand why as I've used it professionally for 20 years and never dreamed of using it on fiberglass that I cared to keep. I might use it below the waterline if ever the need arose but don't see a need above.

Found the Butyl tape thread I referenced earlier and figured it made sense. Pulled a roll off my shelf left over from an RV project 2 years ago and did my boat. While doing it discovered that is what the factory used 30 plus years ago.

Adhesion is the enemy of sealing projects IMO. Good luck with your project Larry.
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:23 PM   #59
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As a plumber I've had as much professional experience as anyone on this forum caulking and much more than most. Point is I had no idea what to use and didn't like what everyone was recommending so I went hunting on the web.

I've used Butyl tape for years on RV's and had some on the shelf. When I decided to re-bed my hardware never gave it a thought though. Went to the boat shop and they sold me a tube of 5200 for $15 and said this will do it. Read the tube at home and didn't like what I saw.

Researched forums and lots of folks liked Sikaflex, couldn't understand why as I've used it professionally for 20 years and never dreamed of using it on fiberglass that I cared to keep. I might use it below the waterline if ever the need arose but don't see a need above.

Found the Butyl tape thread I referenced earlier and figured it made sense. Pulled a roll off my shelf left over from an RV project 2 years ago and did my boat. While doing it discovered that is what the factory used 30 plus years ago.

Adhesion is the enemy of sealing projects IMO. Good luck with your project Larry.
And the savior for some...

I think it just depends on the application. Thankfully we have a lot more choices than 50 years ago.
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Old 09-01-2012, 04:23 PM   #60
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Yesterday I removed the o-ring off of this porthole and took some paint, gel-coat and fiberglass with it. And it didn't surrender easily.

I could understand if this was done when Hobo was built but this was re-bedded 11 years ago by a reputable yard in Sidney, BC. You'd think they would have known better.

I will be using butyl tape when we put it back.
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