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Old 06-02-2015, 11:00 PM   #21
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Caprails...... For me it's been a love / hate relationship. Love the look, hate the work. We ordered our boat new in 2007 with the caprails unfinished, as I didn't want to start a varnish addiction, naively thinking all I would have to do is slap on some teak oil from time to time to keep the wood looking spiffy. The boat has always sit in an uncovered marina, and after the first year the areas not under the flybridge overhang (Europa style boat) bleached out and lost the oil much faster than the covered areas creating an uneven appearance. Also, as it turns out the teak oil fuels the growth of black mold which grows inordinately fast here in the Northwest, especially during the wet winter months. So the second year I went the Cetol route. After washing with teak cleaner and sanding to remove the ugly black mold and mildew, I applied 4 coats of Cetol Marine Light which changed the wood color to a somewhat orangey hue. After one full year the caprails emerged from winter looking much better than they had the previous year but unfortunately there were still many areas of checking, pealing and black mold. I was told that the best part about using Cetol was that you can just touch up these areas without stripping the entire caprail surface. After sanding down the bad areas and reapplying the 4 coats of Cetol to refill, there was a vast difference in coloration in the newly touched up areas compared to the original areas, making for an uneven blotchy look that looked worse year after year. I tried the Cetol Gloss as a top coat protectant but it really didn't improve the look or the protection. Somewhere around year 5 I decided to removed all the layers of Cetol down to the bare wood again, and promised myself I would never go back to Cetol. But in it's place, short of varnish there are really few options. Over the course of the next 4 years I used two other products, Star Brite Tropical Teak Sealer and Dalys SeaFin Ship' n Shore Waterproofing Sealer. Both to no avail as after only one season with multiple coats, black discoloration would reappear over the winter months.

This year I decided to bite the bullet and go the dreaded varnish route. I figured why not, it couldn't be any more work than what I've already experienced with the non-varnish products. So I removed everything back down to the bare wood sanding it to a smooth consistency, washed it with teak cleaner, wiped it down with 50% bleach and water solution, then two coats of SeaFin Penetrating Sealer followed by multiple coats of Man-O-War Spar Varnish cut by 35% Penetrol. Between all coats I sanded the surface with either 220 sand paper and / or Scotch-Brite pads. I'm at 7 coats now and may go as many as 10. My objective is to fill all nooks and crannies with varnish to a glass-like surface to prevent dirt and grime collection, thus not allowing a medium for mold and mildew to grow. That's my hope anyway. Hopefully next season will start with maybe only a light sanding and another coat of varnish. We'll see...... Pictures after 7 coats thus far. - SteveH
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Old 06-03-2015, 06:45 AM   #22
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Nice work Steve . Rails look great . I have use penetrol before with oil base paint but have never tried it with varnish . I'm gonna try it next time we varnish . You have a good base started with the sealer and thinned varnish.
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Old 06-03-2015, 07:11 AM   #23
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Marty,


Quite a few raves for Cetol but I still don't know what the stuff is.

Sikkens Cetol Marine is a durable, long-lasting, semi-transparent satin wood finish made of a special oil-alkyd resin combination and selected ultra violet absorbing pigments, resulting in superior weathering protection for teak and other commonly used woods found on the interiors and exteriors of boats.


Spar varnish

Marine or Spar varnish has a long history of use on boat parts where the varnish's main job was to protect wood exposed to often harsh marine conditions. Spars and masts bend and spar varnish has to be flexible to accommodate this and not crack or flake of. Primary requirement of spar varnish is flexibility and impermeability combined with UV resistance. Modified tung oil and phenolic resins are often used.
The virtue of spar varnish lies in its elasticity and water resistance and much less on its appearance. This spar varnish is often not as shiny as other varnishes. It remains too soft for this.




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Old 06-03-2015, 09:43 AM   #24
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Timely topic, I was going to ask about repairing a Cetol finish but there seems to be mixed success. I have a rather strange observation on the subject of Cetol. The "covered" aft deck of our boat has Cetol on it applied by the PO at least 6 or 7 years ago, maybe longer. I know its Cetol because of the rather ugly orange colour and the part empty can found aboard. The PO had kept a large 10ft dia rug on the deck which when removed left a shadow where it had been but the Cetol underneath was in virtually pristine condition. The uncovered high traffic areas around the rug have small to moderate areas of peeling as would be expected and I was hoping to repair these. I would have bet anything having an often soaked non-waterproof rug on deck for years would have destroyed both the finish and the deck but it did not, quite the opposite. Even the deck caulking under the rug is absolutely pristine. Would the same apply if it had been varnish? Don't know. The obvious takeaway here is that if you made covers for your cap rails as many do, the Cetol finish would last indefinitely. Same should apply if you were to say custom cut a removable carpet for an exposed flybridge teak deck.
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Old 06-03-2015, 09:56 AM   #25
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Steve, looks great, thanks for posting your findings, I do think geographically location creates different results when it comes to Cetol, but nothing is forever.

Now you know why so many grand-banks owners have canvas covers over the teak!
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Old 06-03-2015, 11:38 AM   #26
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SCOTTIEDAVIS,
Your previous post cleared up something I had wondered about. Why they call it "Spar Varnish". I assumed it was special for spars but your description brings something significant together for me. My favorite varnish is McCloskies ... Man O War .. Spar Varnish. I've known it's rather soft and flexible for years and at one point turned my back on it and tried another product. After several other products including "teak oil" I formulated myself while desperate in Alaska.

Another expression for spar varnish should be "high oil varnish". Lately that's what I've been seeking and of course it led me back to McCloskies or more correctly "spar varnish" It could even be called cap rail varnish. With one downside. Cap rails have a lot of relatively high impact encounters w feet, mooring lines, anchors and most anything passing coming aboard or departing the boat. In our case it was feet where we come aboard in the aft cockpit. We sought and found a much harder varnish only to learn about new problems. Now we are back w the Spar (high oil) varnish deciding the scuff markes weren't so bad after all. The high flexability is not only good for spars but IMO cap rails.

As to my question "what is Cetol"? "Special oil-alkyd resin" ...... oil of what? With varnish those things are known. Oil from a specific tree with a specific resin like phenolic resin. Still sounds like it's just another varnish to me. But there clearly is something special about it and I know "they" don't want me to know.

In the 50s, 60's and 70s one only had to read the can to find out what oils and resins were used to make it. It's honesty that I miss and removing that information is protecting the industry ... not the consumer. The government is on the side of industry. So we need to learn about paint products via other means.

Now .. SCOTTIEDAVIS .. Perhaps you could tell me/us what "Man O War" is all about?
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Old 06-03-2015, 11:48 AM   #27
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Teak Top Rails - To Cetol or Not Cetol

Cheechako: there is an earlier recent thread on this topic and also quite a few others. You need more coats of cetol. I use 2 of the natural teak pro duct and strive for 8 of the Marine Gloss product...

However, your last photo shows failure of the finish at the joints that are under the stantion. I had that problem as well. I suspect that water is channeling down the stantion where it sits atop the joint. "Resistance is futile". Failure is inevitable in that case. See the recent thread on "blistering caprail joints" for possible solutions.


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Old 06-03-2015, 11:59 AM   #28
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Eric,

As I understand it Cetol is more of a synthetic coating rather then a natural varnish. I has higher UV resistance and therefor longer life but at the cost of the fine depth seen in 12 coats of thin varnish.

Cetol has a reputation for being orange, this is only for one of their product lines the "Light Teak" color as it has iron oxides in it to increase it's UV protection and hardness.

The clear comes in both gloss and semigloss (flatter) and is not tinted and makes a nice long wearing finish.

Flexibility is key to marine finish as if they are too hard to expand and contract with the wood (teak is very active, more so then mahogany) any cracks let water in and cause mold and fungus to work on removing more finish and so on.

I really didn't want to like Cetol as it's a synthetic modern finish not warm and friendly like the old school stuff, however like polyurethanes it is a much better product in the real world, much easier to apply, quick drying and long life.

Man-o-war???......made with Jelly-fish from Portugal
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Old 06-03-2015, 12:00 PM   #29
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Marty,
I've not used acetone on my teak. Not had any problems w adhesion either.

Quite a few raves for Cetol but I still don't know what the stuff is.

One thing that can be said for it is that my paint store stocks it but more significantly Alaskans use lots and lots of Cetol. Very popular. I've tried just about everything else though.
All of the Teak that I have been using is new material . I bought a bunch of 5/4 Burmese Teak when I started my cap rail and door project . When new teak comes out of the planner it is very waxy and oily . The sawdust does not linger in the air and sticks to everything . I was nervous about getting good adhesion so that was the reason for acetone first . Older teak is not nearly as waxy and oily as fresh teak right out of the planner .
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Old 06-03-2015, 01:45 PM   #30
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Do you need to sand Epifane's between coats?

If you use the varnish, yes, but I have used green Scotchbrite pads to rough it up without creating dust and it works great.

If you use the Epifane's Wood Finish Gloss, you don't need to rough it up if you recoat within 72 hrs. I've been able to get 3 coats per day if I start early and work late in good conditions. The results with the wood finish gloss are the same as with the gloss varnish. Great stuff, IMO.

Note: they recommend 24 hrs between coats, but in the warm, low humidity climes, it dries faster than that.
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Old 06-03-2015, 01:54 PM   #31
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Cetol has a reputation for being orange, this is only for one of their product lines the "Light Teak" color as it has iron oxides in it to increase it's UV protection and hardness.

The clear comes in both gloss and semigloss (flatter) and is not tinted and makes a nice long wearing finish.
You might be thinking of older Cetol formulations. Current Cetol Marine finishes aren't as orange as the original, and most folks seem to think the Natural Teak is the best (that is, least orange) of the new ones.

Also I don't think that there is a semigloss clear now, only gloss.

See http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/pr...nt/search.aspx.
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Old 06-03-2015, 02:24 PM   #32
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Wow, what a great post. I have two upcoming projects. But I am waiting on good weather and warms days...July.

The first job is to sand my galley floor and put a high gloss finish. It was recommended here to use Seafin Aquaspap Gloss.

I only have one other place that has a teak rail, the cockpit. I was not diligent with yearly maintenance. So I now have these yellow/white spots coming up this year. The PO used Sailor gloss? So the rest of the rail looks great as we keep it covered until we want to show it off. Oh and the PO used duct tape and I have to get all the sticky stuff off.

So pics below. What would this TF community recommend how I proceed to fix these spots? Requires a complete stripping?
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Old 06-03-2015, 02:33 PM   #33
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QB,

Sorry, it's called Satin not semi-gloss, my mistake.

Sikkens Cetol Marine Satin



I believe you are right the new formula is less orange but is is still a bit off in my opinion, I forget the name ( perhaps natural not natural light) of the orange-ish one, I have a small can of it on the boat as I tried it but did not like the color.

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Old 06-03-2015, 05:42 PM   #34
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QB,

Sorry, it's called Satin not semi-gloss, my mistake.

Sikkens Cetol Marine Satin

But that one is "translucent", not clear. I think the only clear Cetol Marine finish is Gloss.

Anyway, I'm with you. The old Cetol was awful and the new formulation is better but still not great looking IMO.
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Old 06-03-2015, 08:12 PM   #35
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ASD,
Looks like your'e fine w a bit of touch up to protect the wood. Brightwork and Alaska just don't get along. I gave up and just basically used linseed oil and turpentine. If this boat is going to be a keeper to the extent you don't have much concern about resale I'd pick a good color you like and paint it. A bright color will show all defects ... think of a white boat w brown rust streaks. Black is awful .. unless there are black or similar things to go w it. A semi light color like light green or brown that is the opposite of loud would distract from the fact that the wood trim on the boat isn't varnished. Kinda like painting a car including the chrome names on the trunk. It shouts "cheap paint job".

Or you can buck up and use your boating weather to varnish the boat ... or just put some oil on it and keep doing it every six weeks. That only took me about 20 minutes per application but I wasn't very fussy about wiping up the runs. Or maybe Cetol will offer a middle of the channel solution.
What do you think you'll do?
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Old 06-03-2015, 08:15 PM   #36
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I have been saddled with too much exterior teak on my boats since 1977. Over that time I have tried just about everything, 10 to 15 different brands of varnish, Polyester resin, epoxy, and on some cedar, Cetol. About 10 years ago I bought Epifanes Varnish and since then I have tried some other Epifanes products, but always go back to their best varnish. My boat sits outside for a full 6 months every year, from May 1 to Oct 31, then gets its shelter back and sits inside for 6 months. The winter weather is not nearly so hard on varnish if you can keep the rain off.
My varnishing regimen is to fix the holes in any of the varnish in the spring and attack the worst looking baords whenever I get the urge. That usually means that I redo about 1/2 of the woodwork every year, sometime the same boards over and over, and some can go 5 years without recoating. I constantly get compliments on having "just done" my varnishing, even when the person looking has only seen places I haven't yet touched. This occurred last week, as the fellow directly across the dock has just finished two full weeks of sanding and varnishing his VERY pretty sailboat. He admitted being cheap, as he uses varnish bought at Canadian Tire, or any other cheap source. After we spoke, he admitted that when he gets to his final coat (after two weeks, he wasn't there yet?) he may go and buy some Epifanes and try it out. I haven't seen him at his boat since, but will definitely ask when I do.

My experience with Cetol was disappointing. It took just as much work to prepare the surface, went on as easily as varnish, but didn't look right, as it has so much pigment in it that you lose sight of the grain, and had an unnatural colour. When it fell off, which started after only a short time, it was much harder to fix than varnish, so was banned from my list of acceptable products, along with the Can Tire cheapo varnish (yes, I have tried it). Those who like it seem always to be apologizing for its appearance, saying things like "she's an old girl", as if a good appearance is no longer possible.
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:23 AM   #37
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Wow, what a great post. I have two upcoming projects. But I am waiting on good weather and warms days...July.

The first job is to sand my galley floor and put a high gloss finish. It was recommended here to use Seafin Aquaspap Gloss.

I only have one other place that has a teak rail, the cockpit. I was not diligent with yearly maintenance. So I now have these yellow/white spots coming up this year. The PO used Sailor gloss? So the rest of the rail looks great as we keep it covered until we want to show it off. Oh and the PO used duct tape and I have to get all the sticky stuff off.

So pics below. What would this TF community recommend how I proceed to fix these spots? Requires a complete stripping?
Personally I would not use gloss on the interior of a boat. Especially a floor.

But if you must I'd use a interior grade one part oil based poly. Cheap, easy to work with and long lasting.


As to the bad spots that need touch up, you can patch them for sure. But if you want it to look it's best you need to start over.
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Old 06-04-2015, 11:04 AM   #38
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Personally I would not use gloss on the interior of a boat. Especially a floor.

But if you must I'd use a interior grade one part oil based poly. Cheap, easy to work with and long lasting.


As to the bad spots that need touch up, you can patch them for sure. But if you want it to look it's best you need to start over.
I'm not a wood guy (electrician) so how do you "touch up?" These spots appear to be under the finish and was created by water intrusion?
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:27 PM   #39
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The "bad spots" are those that I can scrape to clean, golden wood and put several coats on, to bring the depth of varnish up to something close to the surrounding wood, then one light coat over the whole piece. If you can still see the fixed part, as different fro the rest, I sometimes take the whole piece right down. This is done rarely, as a fixed piece usually blends right in. I use an artist's brush for the repair. I have several sizes, but prefer 1/4" to 1/2" wide, soft bristle brushes. 6 to 10 coats. as these fixes are often only 1/4" or less in width, 1/4" to several inches in length, it doesn't take much effort to scrape, fix and topcoat. Then for a top coat, I prefer a badger 2" brush.
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Old 06-04-2015, 06:52 PM   #40
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Thanks Koliver! The adventures of boating for sure....
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