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Old 06-04-2012, 12:22 PM   #21
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Keep drinking the cool-aid.
If screws aren't an issue ever wonder why the industry doesn't screw the decks down anymore?
Faster and cheaper???????????
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:29 PM   #22
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Keep drinking the cool-aid.
If screws aren't an issue ever wonder why the industry doesn't screw the decks down anymore?
Read the discussion again and it will become obvious.

The problem is NOT water migrating from the top of the boards (rain, spray, whatever) down through the boards via the screws to lie under them. The water doesn't stay on top of the deck long enough to seep down that way. The problem is water migrating down past the teak boards through the seams when the sealant pulls away from one side or the other (or both) of the groove. This can allow quite a bit of moisture/water to get down under the boards very quickly.

Once the moisture gets under the teak boards it stays there, and THIS is where the screws become a problem. Over time the moisture can start migrating down alongside the screws into the subdeck core, which is usually wood, where, over time, it can encourage dry rot to get a foothold.

BTW, this is the reason one should always wash a teak deck with salt water. If water does get under the boards and migrate down into the subdeck at least it will be salt water which does not encourage dry rot as fast as fresh water. Of course there's nothing you can do about the rain falling on your deck although I have known people who sprinkle salt on their decks periodically in the hope that rainwater migrating down past any failed seam sections will carry some salt with it.

The reason companies like Grand Banks, Fleming, etc. switched to gluing down their teak decking instead of screwing it down, according to the then-factory manager of Grand Banks who told me what I'm about to tell you, is that a) its WAY cheaper to do it this way than installing a zillion screws, and b) it totally eliminates the opportunity for moisture trapped under the boards--- which he said will eventually as the deck gets older, the planks work and expand and contract and seams start to separate---- from migrating down into the subdeck because there are no screws penetrating the subdeck for the moisture to follow.

I've been on plenty of boats, including ours, that had problematic teak decks. When the deck got wet the wetness around the seams where the sealant had pulled away remained long after the rest of the deck had dried out. This is becaue the moisture that had gone down into the groove was wicking back up to the surface as well as going on down to gather between the boards. In many cases you could step no the boards and the water would bubble back up past the failed sealant.

In fact, that's how we find out where problematic seams are so we can fix them once the wood has thoroughly dried out. Hose down the deck, see where the wood is still wet along the seams after the rest of the deck has dried out, and mark the spots with tape or take a photo.

But at the same time this was happening, there was rarely, and usually never, any remaining wetness around the screws themselves on deck even those that had missing plugs. On the rare occasions this happened, I invariably found that the problem was a loose plug or badly fitting plug that allowed moisture to get around or under the plug. But these spots dried out very quickly. Nothing like the moisture around the separated seams which could remain for hours.

Now if a teak deck is a real mess with failed seams, cracked boards, failed sealant under the boards that lets them work even more, the screws will gradually and microscopically work their holes larger and then moisture could certainly get down from the deck surface past the screws to like under the boards. But the far more prevelant problem with decks that are otherwise in good condition is the separation of seam sealant from the sides of the grooves. The screws themselves are only a problem once the moisture gets down under the deck planks where it doesn't evaporate and has time to creep down alongside the lower part of the screw into the subdeck.

So yes, the screws are a problem but not the part of the screw that's in the teak deck plank but the part of the screw that's penetrating the subdeck into the core (if the core is wood).

Now if you still don't follow this perhaps a trip to Singapore and the Grand Banks yard will help make it clear for you.
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Old 06-04-2012, 01:06 PM   #23
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I need a job at Boeing that pays me to play on computer forums all day. Then I would be smarter than everyone else.
Marin..you are the MAN!
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Old 06-04-2012, 03:23 PM   #24
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...BTW, this is the reason one should always wash a teak deck with salt water. If water does get under the boards and migrate down into the subdeck at least it will be salt water which does not encourage dry rot as fast as fresh water...



The reason salt water has been used on teak decks is:
  • Salt water reduces mould, mildew and algae growth.
  • Salt being hygroscopic absorbs moisture form the air and helps keep the wood from drying out.
  • Salt water and the UV from the sun act as natural bleaching agents.
If you have leaking seams, fix them. Getting salt water into the core can not help if you have to facilitate repairs later. Our goal is to keep saltwater off the boat.

An easy way to check if have bad seams is watch when the decks are drying, when a seam stays wet longer, take a closer inspection. Chances are the caulk has pulled away from the seam and needs repair.
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Old 06-05-2012, 06:01 AM   #25
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Boat is currently in Puget Sound. I've just removed 60 sq ft of teak deck, had the top 'glass cut out and the balsa core (mostly wet, some quite rotten) replaced. When removing the teak it was pretty clear to me that the seams let water get under the deck, and the screws then let the water into the core. There were about 950 screws. Basically all the plugs were intact and sealed.

I'm pretty certain that at some point a PO had tried to fix the deck by removing the teak, rebedding it (in some king of sticky black goop) and re fastening using square drive screws. The balsa could have largely been ruined by then, but seams starting leaking again.....

A boat yard quoted me $130 sq ft for new teak decking, but I'm just going to glass it and paint non-slip over it. I really like teak, but it gets too hot to walk on anyway if you are in the tropics. I still have some, but it is partly shaded and I haven't noticed any soft spots in it.

I salvaged most of the old deck, but if I ever use it I will use the TDS epoxy fitting method and avoid screws. Then I just have to epoxy plugs into all the old screw holes. It will get very tedious .....
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:36 PM   #26
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I need a job at Boeing that pays me to play on computer forums all day. Then I would be smarter than everyone else.
Marin..you are the MAN!
I do all this forum silliness from my iPad, usually while I'm in transit to somewhere. Right now it's Beijing. It's like reading a newspaper when one has a few spare moments. As I said, mindless entertainment that provides a short break while doing something real.

If you don't understand how this whole teak deck thing works then you might want to talk to the Grand Banks folks at their yards in Singapore and Malaysia. That's how I learned it. I'm just passing on what I've learned from them as well as local shipwrights who have a lot of experience with teak decks plus our own fourteen years of experience rejuvinating and maintainining a now-forty year old teak deck.

If you think GB and the shipwrights are wrong, that's fine. Me, I'm going to go with the boat manufacturer who's been putting teak decks on their boats since 1966 rather than what some amateur backyard boat fixer-upper guy happens to believe.
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Old 06-05-2012, 06:45 PM   #27
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6221 mindless posts from your iPad while traveling do something real is very impression. I think everyone here will agree.
You are also correct about being an amateur backyard boat fixer-upper guy. My amateur status comes from not paying myself to work on my boat which is in my backyard. Something I always wanted to do when I retired and glad I had the where with all to make it a reality.
I'm the kind of guy that actually does things rather than just repeat what I hear.
Since retirement I've split much of my time between the amateur backyard boat work and boat deliveries. Real boats in real oceans going real places.
If you ever decide to take the blue doilies off your bright work and go some place real with that GB rather than the three hour tour to the private island where you own property (impresses me). Let me know. I'll send you my professional and marine resume and maybe we can cut a deal.
I've provided a couple of links for you to review when you into doing mindless things while traveling to your real job.
Maybe you'll find something here to cut and paste for the experts over on the GB Forum.
Four Options to Consider if You Think Your Teak Deck is Leaking | Teak Marine
Teak Deck Company: Maintenance & Repair

Headed back up the driveway.
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:05 PM   #28
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If you ever decide to take the blue doilies off your bright work and go some place real with that GB rather than the three hour tour to the private island where you own property (impresses me). Let me know. I'll send you my professional and marine resume and maybe we can cut a deal.
.
That's funny. But I would more inclined to let my dog take our boat out. Who considering his intelligence and agility would probably do a really good job. I'm reminded of the fellow at work who just got his private license in a Cessa 152 and was giving flying "advice" one day to my friend who happens to be the chief production pilot for the 787 program.

Oh well, we all have our little delusions.

The experts on the GB forum don't need any help from me or you. I dare say they've forgotten more about boats, teak decks, and maintaining them than you and I put together will ever know. And knowing how to drive other people's boats around for them has no bearing whatsoever on how much one knows about maintaining them. Being a chauffeur is easy (see my comment about my dog). Fixing the limo is a whole different deal.

PS-- I read both your links. The first one is overly simplistic and doesn't even address the issue of seam sealant separation and repair.. The second one is a little better in this regard but again doesn't provide enough detail to do much with. So I'm gonna stick with what I've learned at GB in Singapore and Malaysia and from people like shipwright and former yard owner Bob Lowe on the GB forum.
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:45 PM   #29
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Keep drinking the cool-aid!
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:51 PM   #30
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It's great stuff. You should try it. Particularly the flavor they call Knowledge. It's really hard to find-- try Costco--but it's worth the effort.

PS. BTW I saw a little boat exactly like yours in a yard out on the Lummi Indian reservation near Bellingham a few weeks ago. It doesn't look anywhere near as nice as yours in your avatar but it is up on blocks.
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Old 06-05-2012, 08:02 PM   #31
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Forget about the cool-aid - I want to know more about those teak 'joints' you guys 'seam' to be smoking...
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Old 06-05-2012, 08:04 PM   #32
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Forget about the cool-aid - I want to know more about those teak 'joints' you guys 'seam' to be smoking...
It's great stuff AND it's not a controlled substance. Takes awhile to get used to the heavy black smoke though.
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Old 06-05-2012, 08:36 PM   #33
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I confess! I'm on the wagon. I got rid of all my teak joints! Nice white cool fiberglass decks. No more leaky teaky. No more teaK joints,
Marin - Thanks for the compliment! I mean it. Rebuilding Scout over the last 4 years has been a labor of love. We should be in the water in two weeks. I think even you and the experts on the GB forum would be impressed with the results. I will post pictures soon,
BTW - I don't do Cessna's. I sold my Saratoga when we sold the construction companies. After a few thousand hours in the left seat, I do miss it.
You must have a really smart dog! My delusions stay away as long as I stay on my meds. Have you taken yours today?
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:19 PM   #34
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The boat looks great in the avatar and other photos you've posted from time to time.

I did Pipers (Cherokee 140, 160, 180, and Six), then Cessnas (150, 172, 182, 206, T206, a Mooney Chapparal, then Rockwells and a Citabria, then Cessnas on floats (172, 180 180KAH), and finally the Beaver. Some time in a Turbo Beaver and the Vazar Dash-3 turbine Otter conversion, both on floats. Also a bit of time in a Top Cub. The 206 on wheels (it's a dog on floats) was my favorite until I started flying the Beaver.

I'd like to see photos of your completed boat, particularly the inside. I envy people who are retired and have the time to work over a boat properly as you have been doing the last few years. Even though we use our boat year round-- and we do go places farther away than "our" island although it makes a great weekend getaway because the public can't go there-- we are always playing catch-up in terms of brightwork, canvas, etc. That's why we leave the blue doilies on the boat most of the year. Does wonders for the longevity of the finish which we simply don't have time to keep after properly if the finish was exposed to the weather year-round.

So we do the best we can and use the boat as often as we can.

Our dog is very smart indeed. He probably knows a lot more about driving our boat properly than we do. Problem is he's been having difficulty with his language skills so by the time he tells me what I should be doing it's generally too late.

Now I've got to go out and continue the process of encouraging job transfer from the US to China.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:30 PM   #35
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I think we need to get Marin and Anode a room where they can "You show me yours and I'll show you mine"
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:52 PM   #36
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I gotta trade my iPad in cause it doesn't seem to have as many words as Marin's. Alls I can say, I love all the reading though
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:54 AM   #37
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Being a professional writer is no different than being a professional musician or athlete. Practice, practice, practice.
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