Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 12-28-2010, 12:26 PM   #21
Guru
 
timjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,905
RE: Rudder cracked

Quote:
Phil Fill wrote:

*
Timjet, what is the prognoses/status?

*
With the holidays and work I haven't gotten the rudder to the prop shop yet. I called them yesterday and found out they are closed until Jan 3. I've got one maybe two weekends in January to work on the boat which includes filling about 150 blisters, installing two rudder logs, two thru hulls, installing a GPS sensor, and painting the bottom. I also gotta get 3 rusted bolts off the exhaust side of the stbd turbo. The bolts will probably have to be drilled out.*
I think I need some help!!!

*
__________________
Advertisement

timjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 01:11 PM   #22
Guru
 
timjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,905
RE: Rudder cracked

I took the rudder in to Admiral Prop in Tampa today. After conferring with their machinist he gave me an estimate to repair the crack. They will remove the SS shaft and replace with a new one that is in my understanding encased in bronze. The will cut out the old shaft and weld in the new assembly. The SS shaft must be replaced because there is pitting at the point where the shaft goes through the rudder log, and this is why I was leaking so much water. The pitting is too severe to repair.

My quandary: Repair is $325, new is $535. The prop shop says their repair is good as new. I called my mechanic to get his opinion and he said replace with new because you don't know the condition of the bronze inside where the shaft sits.

I'm waiting to hear from the manufacturer of the rudder who is still in business and where I will get the replacement, Marine Associates in WI.

What do you guys think, repair or replace?
__________________

timjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 01:52 PM   #23
Doc
Guru
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 508
RE: Rudder cracked

Did they say what caused the problem? If it was made of cheap material, I wouldn't replace from the same company.

If I knew that I was getting a quality replacement I would do that.
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 02:11 PM   #24
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Rudder cracked

Quote:
timjet wrote:What do you guys think, repair or replace?
The idea that they are willing to machine the shaft out of the rudder and insert a replacement yet*they claim they can't repair the*pitting*makes me a bit nervous.

I'd go for a second opinion at a welding/machine shop that does industrial repairs of pumps and mill machinery. Look for one that does flame spraying buildup for shaft repairs.



*
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 02:25 PM   #25
Guru
 
jleonard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,738
RE: Rudder cracked

"Repair is $325, new is $535"

Close call assuming the repair really is as good as new and the new material is as good as the old.

Generally speaking if the repair is more than half the cost of new go new. This is close.
jleonard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 10:10 PM   #26
Guru
 
timjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,905
RE: Rudder cracked

Quote:
Doc wrote:

Did they say what caused the problem? If it was made of cheap material, I wouldn't replace from the same company.

If I knew that I was getting a quality replacement I would do that.
The prop shop did not offer an explanation as to why it cracked nor did they express an opinion of it's quality. My opinion: It cracked because the PO hit something in the water at high speed, though nothing else shows any damage, or he ran aground. The prop shop has given me the option of repairing or replacing with the opinion that the repair will be good as new.*

*
timjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 10:24 PM   #27
Guru
 
timjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,905
RE: Rudder cracked

Quote:
RickB wrote:

*
The idea that they are willing to machine the shaft out of the rudder and insert a replacement yet*they claim they can't repair the*pitting*makes me a bit nervous.

I'd go for a second opinion at a welding/machine shop that does industrial repairs of pumps and mill machinery. Look for one that does flame spraying buildup for shaft repairs.

I don't remember the machinist exact words but he indicated that the cost to repair the pitting on such a small shaft would exceed the cost to replace it.*The opinion of the machinist was that the pitting was caused by*electrolysis due to poor grounding of the bonding system. The pitting only*occurred at the point where the shaft comes in contact with the packing material in the rudder log about 1 inch in length and the circumference of the shaft.*He didn't say he couldn't repair the pitting just that it would cost more than to replace it.*

*
timjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 10:30 PM   #28
Guru
 
timjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,905
RE: Rudder cracked

Quote:
jleonard wrote:

"Repair is $325, new is $535"

Close call assuming the repair really is as good as new and the new material is as good as the old.

Generally speaking if the repair is more than half the cost of new go new. This is close.
Yes this is a close call, but I think replacing is the right call. If the repair is not done correctly and the prop shop stands behind their work, I doubt they will pay to have the boat hauled in which case any money saved would be absorbed in the haul out fee.*

I like your last comment and will probably use that formula in the future.*

*
timjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 11:21 PM   #29
Guru
 
Woodsong's Avatar
 
City: Atlanta
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Bayliner 4550 Pilothouse
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,630
RE: Rudder cracked

$200 more and you get a brand new one? For me it would be no debate- brand new replacement would be on order! $200 is cheap peace of mind for not having to worry about it again down the road, particularly if you are far from home. $200, in boat dollars, is like only $10 extra for land based stuff! Go for the new one is my vote and keep the old one at your house "just in case" you ever need it for some strange reason.
Woodsong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 11:35 PM   #30
Guru
 
timjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,905
RE: Rudder cracked

Quote:
Woodsong wrote:

$200 more and you get a brand new one? For me it would be no debate- brand new replacement would be on order! $200 is cheap peace of mind for not having to worry about it again down the road, particularly if you are far from home. $200, in boat dollars, is like only $10 extra for land based stuff! Go for the new one is my vote and keep the old one at your house "just in case" you ever need it for some strange reason.
Yup, I'm gonna order a new one tomorrow.

Thanks everyone for your help.

*
timjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 01:18 AM   #31
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,262
RE: Rudder cracked

Glad that's solved.
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 04:41 AM   #32
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
RE: Rudder cracked

Yup, I'm gonna order a new one tomorrow.



KEEP the damaged one on board as a spare.

Should you somehow damage the new one ,

a quick tide swop will have you underway , not at the mercy of the boat yard pirates!
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 06:40 AM   #33
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,363
RE: Rudder cracked

Assuming you still have a bonding issue, what are you going to do to obviate that problem?

Does this diagnosis from the shop mean your other rudder may have similar lurking issues with corrosion? If in doubt, I'd buy a new one and repair the old as an immediate backup. I just sprung a weep in an exhaust mixing elbow. The other looked fine but I changed them both anyway.
sunchaser is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 08:50 AM   #34
Doc
Guru
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 508
RE: Rudder cracked

I am going to guess that the pitting in the shaft was CC, which is more likely to occur with an inferior metal blend. I would not buy from the same supplier. Yours is not the first Carver to have had bad CC with the prop or rudder shafts.
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 04:26 AM   #35
Guru
 
timjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,905
RE: Rudder cracked

Crevice Corrosion, I thought you guys just made that up. Well its alive and well and on my boat. My research and correct me if Im wrong indicates that crevice corrosion is most prevalent where water stagnates like in an inactive rudder log. The chlorine in sea water reacts with oxygen and creates a corrosive environment that pits stainless steel. I found out that the ss rudder shaft is magnetic indicating that it is of lesser quality, probably 400 series?? However, according to Carver, Marine Associates, and the prop shop, the lower quality of the shaft used on my rudders is used on many production boats with good results. Carver suggested that perhaps the boat had not been used much recently and he was correct in that assessment. Exercising the rudders by turning the helm wheel will flush out the stagnate water in the rudder logs delaying or preventing the formation of crevice corrosion, even if just done at the slip.


With this knowledge I called the prop shop to stop them from having a new rudder shipped. Hopefully I called in time. The prop shop will repair the rudder with a new ss shaft of higher quality though this is no guarantee that it wont happen again.


Tom, I know the other rudder is affected with CC as well but not as bad. Before having this knowledge I was just going to re-install it. Im now going to have the prop shop look at it and hopefully they can just cut out the section with the CC and machine in a new section. The only corrosion on either rudder is located at the point where the shaft passes through the rudder log, so I dont think I have any electrical induced corrosion, galvanic corrosion?? The rudder logs when they were removed had some green stuff around them and so did the bonding wires, but once cleaned the rudder logs looked good.


A new checklist item will now be entered on my boat checklist - exercise the rudders.
timjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 06:06 AM   #36
Guru
 
jleonard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,738
RE: Rudder cracked

"A new checklist item will now be entered on my boat checklist - exercise the rudders."

If you have grandchildren that come aboard you won't have to worry about this task. LOL
jleonard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 07:34 AM   #37
Doc
Guru
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 508
RE: Rudder cracked

Exercise the prop shafts too. My buddy's Carver had CC pitting inside the cutlass bearings and they could not be repaired. When this was going on Carver accused him of not running his boat often enough...which was true. He claims, however, that he started the boat almost weekly and put it in gear to spin the shafts.
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 06:49 PM   #38
Guru
 
timjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,905
RE: Rudder cracked

Quote:
jleonard wrote:
If you have grandchildren that come aboard you won't have to worry about this task. LOL
Jay, I showed this to my wife as we have 3 grandchildren that aren't quite old enough but soon will be. We both got a chuckle out of it. I can just see all 3 of em up on the bridge turning the wheel and blowing the horn. What fun.

*
timjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 06:52 PM   #39
Guru
 
timjet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,905
RE: Rudder cracked

Quote:
Doc wrote:

Exercise the prop shafts too. My buddy's Carver had CC pitting inside the cutlass bearings and they could not be repaired. When this was going on Carver accused him of not running his boat often enough...which was true. He claims, however, that he started the boat almost weekly and put it in gear to spin the shafts.
I've thought of that too. So far no leaks at all around the prop shafts.

*
timjet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 07:04 AM   #40
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Rudder cracked

"So far no leaks at all around the prop shafts."

Which just means that in way of the seal at least, there is no water movement, it is stagnant which means the oxygen is depleted and that is what causes crevice corrosion.

You can't change nature, the materials on your boat*are trying to return to*their original state. The only thing that can slow the process is the contents of your bank account.
__________________

RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rudder zinc belizebill Power Systems 5 12-24-2011 11:17 AM
Cracked battery case? 7tiger7 General Discussion 11 03-01-2011 07:45 AM
rudder for MT 36 Howard Power Systems 13 12-24-2010 12:07 AM
Monk 36 Rudder Capuchin General Discussion 38 12-23-2010 11:29 PM
Rudder Maintenance Forkliftt General Maintenance 12 01-08-2008 04:07 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012