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Old 05-09-2012, 12:51 PM   #61
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I am very sorry that I came across as snide, I did not mean to. just posted a quick response as I read the forum on my phone on the bus to work this morning, not trying to be snotty! I actually was agreeing with what you said in the post from you that I quoted that
go to waypoint keeps you on track while hold heading doesn't correct for set and drift
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Old 05-09-2012, 01:00 PM   #62
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OK..then why the snide and totally INCORRECT comment "it is SUCH a huge difference."??????

Most experienced mariners KNOW the difference between navigating and being a lookout....
I'm not trying to argue with you, as I have agreed with everything you said about AP... I'm not sure why you are saying my comment is incorrect. Maybe you mean that I said it was a HUGE difference... I do not mean a HUGE difference in where you will end up if you go to waypoint versus follow a heading, I mean I personally find it much more handy to go to a waypoint and let the AP get me to that precise point--a huge difference in my peace of mind maybe would better describe what I mean??

Unfortunately my AP is not hooked to my GPS right now so I do not have the luxury of going to a way point but on previous (sail) boats we used that feature a lot, particularly when transversing the bay, say after finishing an ocean race, and needing to avoid the San Bruno shoal. one time we did not use the AP on the way back and the person steering was not actually NAVIGATING, and we clipped the bottom of the rudder the shoal. As you say, big difference between being on lookout and navigating! Couldn't agree more!
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Old 05-09-2012, 01:27 PM   #63
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First a comment on 'Book values", after 16 years of boat and yacht sales I have found book values to be accurate only on boats a few years old that sold in large numbers, such as Sea Ray, Boston Whaler, and other production builders. Any one who says the book value on a 20 year old Taiwanese trawler is certain amount does not really know what they are talking about. But many insurance companies, banks and state motor vehicle departments don't know what they are talking about on boat values anyway.
I do not do "appraisals" but I do give estimates of market value all the time. One of the factors in determing market value is what brokers refer to as the "wow factor." A potential buyer might walk up to the boat and think "wow this boat looks good" or "wow, this price is low enough for me to fix it up." The wow factor can be different things to different buyers.
Determining what will increase the value of a boat and by how much is difficult. I have a listing on a boat that was purchased only a year ago as a dealer left over with no davit, dinghy, satellite TV , helm seats and more. The owners wife has health problems and the boat is back on the market and those additions have increased the value of the boat. If those items had been put on an older boat as replacements then they would add very little value.
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:14 PM   #64
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can be...get out much? ...especially the slower you go..
PG won't toot her own horn, but I will. She sailed in a small sailboat from the west coast to Hawaii. I'd say that's getting out there. Would you?
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:32 PM   #65
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PG won't toot her own horn, but I will. She sailed in a small sailboat from the west coast to Hawaii. I'd say that's getting out there. Would you?
Let's not go there...the comment was later explained as an agreement. Had it not been, it would have displayed thorough lack of navigational skills...which I responded to in the tone I took the original post to be...
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:57 PM   #66
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Let's not go there...the comment was later explained as an agreement. Had it not been, it would have displayed thorough lack of navigational skills...which I responded to in the tone I took the original post to be...
Just demonstrating my lack of taking time to post intelligently, making myself look like a snide idiot. I'm really very nice and not too bad at navigating. I wasn't in charge of navigating on the Hawaii trip so that trip isn't really relevant. Though thank you for mentioning I am not a total newbie, Al.

When on the bay, we tend to cover the same ground a lot and follow the same course each time. The day we hit the shoal (mentioned above), our boat partners were "in charge" and did not follow the course we suggested (and always take ourselves) that stays well West of the shoal. We had our waypoints in the GPS and could have let the AP take us along our safe route but if I recall our partners decided to sail back and were handsteering (not that you cannot use the AP under sail but anyway, I think I was making myself a sandwich when we hit the shoal )

To Anode's point that the value added by the AP "is worth a lot to him" I agree whole heartedly on that! The one the boat came with works (though the prior owner told us it did not--turned out a wire was loose. Only took me three months to figure THAT out ) but cannot interface with our GPS and since both Matt and I much prefer being able to set the AP steer to a waypoint vs a heading, we are thinking of upgrading to a new AP at some point. Probably right after we win the lottery and redo all the electronics but anyway is on the list.
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Old 05-09-2012, 06:16 PM   #67
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Just demonstrating my lack of taking time to post intelligently, making myself look like a snide idiot. I'm really very nice and not too bad at navigating. I wasn't in charge of navigating on the Hawaii trip so that trip isn't really relevant. Though thank you for mentioning I am not a total newbie, Al.

When on the bay, we tend to cover the same ground a lot and follow the same course each time. The day we hit the shoal (mentioned above), our boat partners were "in charge" and did not follow the course we suggested (and always take ourselves) that stays well West of the shoal. We had our waypoints in the GPS and could have let the AP take us along our safe route but if I recall our partners decided to sail back and were handsteering (not that you cannot use the AP under sail but anyway, I think I was making myself a sandwich when we hit the shoal )

To Anode's point that the value added by the AP "is worth a lot to him" I agree whole heartedly on that! The one the boat came with works (though the prior owner told us it did not--turned out a wire was loose. Only took me three months to figure THAT out ) but cannot interface with our GPS and since both Matt and I much prefer being able to set the AP steer to a waypoint vs a heading, we are thinking of upgrading to a new AP at some point. Probably right after we win the lottery and redo all the electronics but anyway is on the list.
You're cool...as soon as you said you didn't mean it that way...it's OK with me...

The autopilot "automation" argument has raged for ever (well at least since the first timesomeone was using one and hit something...)

I think having tools is great...the more the better...but the one tool that has to always be the sharpest of all is the mind.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:17 PM   #68
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Survey

A survey is usually done to see if your boat is worth what is being asked for it. Not done to see how much it is actually worth. Not that you can't get that kind of survey if you ask for it. Remember that the survey industry is rather unregulated and works to its own standards.

It is no surprise to have a surveyor ask how much you want the survey to meet. The surveyor than determines if the boat is worth that amount on todays market.

Trying to determine what todays market is can be a pretty hard.
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Old 05-15-2012, 02:12 PM   #69
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I hardly ever run our AP in "follow the course" mode. Dodging buoys, logs, crab pots, other traffic and inclimate weather in the PNW requires a careful watch. I just don't think the helmsman is as vigilant with a course setting vs manually adjusting the AP wheel to stay on course.
While it had not been listed on the broker's sheet, our boat came with an autopilot. We removed it for the reason Sunchaser describes above. I certainly don't advocate this as something I think boaters with autopilots should do, but we prefer steering by hand. Now on longer runs, particularly on the big, open bodies of water around here--- Strait of Georgia, Queen Charlotte Strait, etc.--- an autopilot could be a real benefit.

But hand steering keeps us more vigilant and we have avoided hitting deadheads and other debris or running over an isolated crab pot because of it. And since both of us like to operate the boat it's not like one person has to be at the helm the entire time. On the longer runs across the Strait of Georgia, for example, we trade off periodically.

Our boat tracks quite well so maintaining a heading with manual steering is not much effort unless we're in following or aft-quartering waves. If I single-handed the boat or if only one of us was interested in operating it an autopilot would probably become more of a priority. But so far I cannot recall any time when either of us expressed a wish that we had that autopilot back.

We use the plotters and track as accurately as possible pre-plotted courses everywhere we go even though many of our routes we know by heart now. But we like staying current "on instruments," and acting as our own "autopilot" keeps us very much aware of what the currents and wind are doing to us as we creep along at a whopping 8 knots.

And when we enter a new course in the plotters we zoom in and track that course on the screen very carefully to make sure we haven't inadvertently laid a line over a rock or reef or anything else that isn't water. There are enough widely publicized incidents of vessels--- sometimes captained by very experienced people---- going up on rocks or reefs to keep us on our toes with the plotters. These groundings are often blamed by the unfortunate helmsman on an "uncharted" rock. I'm sure Captain Vancouver and his contemporaries had plenty of encounters --- near misses or otherwise--- with uncharted rocks and reefs in the late 1700s.

But these days it's been our observation from plotting courses all through the San Juans, Gulf Islands, Desolation Sound, and the myriad of islands at the south end of Queen Charlotte Strait that the danger areas and individual hazards are very much "charted." So I suspect almost all groundings today are the result of what Sunchaser described--- a mistake on the part of the boat's crew or a lack of vigilance, not the sudden appearance of a "new" rock.
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Old 05-15-2012, 02:29 PM   #70
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....I'm thinking of painting "da boat". Not for resale but because I'm tired of looking at crazed, chipped, oxidized and faded coatings and they're getting me down...... So do I do nothing and live with the status quo or re-paint? Hmmmmm...
RTF--- While we may in the near future do the exact opposite of what I'm about to tell you, there is merit in the following approach I think.

An acquaintance some years back had his 50-something foot cruiser backed into by a small freighter on the Seattle Ship Canal. The impact was dead on the bow and the hull flexed and momentarily expanded enough to pop all the boat's lateral bulkheads loose. Insurance declared the boat a total loss but the owner loved the boat and had the means to fix it, so he sent it to Delta (the famous yacht manufacturer here in Seattle) and they rebuilt the boat. Literally.

The rebuild included a new paint job. I was on the boat shortly after Delta delivered the rebuilt boat and was remarking to the owner on the fantastic paint job. And it was. It's the best paint job I've ever seen on any boat, ever. We had only owned our old GB for a few years and our boat's gelcoat matches your description of yours. I told the owner I'd love to have our boat painted the same way as his someday.

He laughed and said, "No you don't. You can pay a ton of money to have a paint job like this done and then spend the rest of your days terrified that something or somebody will scratch it or ding it or mess it up somehow, or you can leave your boat the way it is and just enjoy it with no worries."

Which is what we've done, at least so far. So.... something to think about.
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Old 05-15-2012, 03:37 PM   #71
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RTF--- While we may in the near future do the exact opposite of what I'm about to tell you, there is merit in the following approach I think.

An acquaintance some years back had his 50-something foot cruiser backed into by a small freighter on the Seattle Ship Canal. The impact was dead on the bow and the hull flexed and momentarily expanded enough to pop all the boat's lateral bulkheads loose. Insurance declared the boat a total loss but the owner loved the boat and had the means to fix it, so he sent it to Delta (the famous yacht manufacturer here in Seattle) and they rebuilt the boat. Literally.

The rebuild included a new paint job. I was on the boat shortly after Delta delivered the rebuilt boat and was remarking to the owner on the fantastic paint job. And it was. It's the best paint job I've ever seen on any boat, ever. We had only owned our old GB for a few years and our boat's gelcoat matches your description of yours. I told the owner I'd love to have our boat painted the same way as his someday.

He laughed and said, "No you don't. You can pay a ton of money to have a paint job like this done and then spend the rest of your days terrified that something or somebody will scratch it or ding it or mess it up somehow, or you can leave your boat the way it is and just enjoy it with no worries."

Which is what we've done, at least so far. So.... something to think about.
Ya know...I agree...

I bought an older, rougher 1988 trawler and guess what...way more money than she's worth would ever get her back to showroom condition.

I've been running commercial boats and been aboard USCG vessels for the last 35 years...and everyone compliments how nice they look after a fresh coat of hand applied paint.

So it's nice, workboat fit and finish for me...even though not technically a trawler...the namesake and background speak of a nice yet not awlgrip or shiny gel coat gloss on her....

Plus I do a lot of boating by myself or helpless crew... so nicks and scrapes are inevitable...I would die at the first one after a $20,000 or more paint job considering it would be 1/2 the cost of the boat!
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Old 05-15-2012, 06:32 PM   #72
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The autopilot "automation" argument has raged for ever (well at least since the first time someone was using one and hit something...)
True, that!

One consideration I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread are "Crazy Ivan" turns. Have you ever noticed your GPS track jumping, and then jumping back? Now imagine your AP was slaved to the GPS!
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:00 PM   #73
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"then spend the rest of your days terrified that something or somebody will scratch it or ding it or mess it up somehow"
Sounds like the virgins of the world are safe with this guy.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:02 PM   #74
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True, that!

One consideration I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread are "Crazy Ivan" turns. Have you ever noticed your GPS track jumping, and then jumping back? Now imagine your AP was slaved to the GPS!
never in the last 12 years as a pro captain on deliveries or local work have I ever had the gps do something strange to the autopilot... the autopilot may have kicked itself off but for what reason I don't know...many of the boats I'm lucky to get the stuff working at all.

you aren't thinking loran cycle jump...familiar with that...never heard that gps does it...
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:04 PM   #75
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Sounds like the virgins of the world are safe with this guy.
They are now. He's dead.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:14 PM   #76
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They are now. He's dead.
More proof abstinence will kill you.
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Old 05-16-2012, 09:49 AM   #77
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True, that!

One consideration I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread are "Crazy Ivan" turns. Have you ever noticed your GPS track jumping, and then jumping back? Now imagine your AP was slaved to the GPS!
Are you talking about when the picture jumps back and forth on the chartplotter? If so that is just the picture refreshing to a different page. The course on the plotter hasn't changed. The AP steers to the course that the plotter tells it. The picture you are seeing does not control the AP.
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