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Old 04-18-2012, 04:46 PM   #21
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What am I missing other than the proverbial and very real $$, blood, sweat and tears you honestly put into Scout?
Other than the 'routine maintenance' of deck, 2-part paint topsides and hull, new aluminum windows, doors rebuilt, drive line out, new shaft coupling, drive line carrier bearings, new stern tube bearing housing, new cutlass bearings, rudder removed and rebuilt, rudder shaft bearing housing reglassed and re-bedded, new rudder cutlass bearings, teak grab rails replaced with stainless steel, new trident propane locker and safety shut off, new fresh water flush toilet, new Electra Scan, new muffler and exhaust hose complete, new plumbing through out and fixtures, new water heater, new led nav lightings, new led deck lighting, new stainless radar arch, new spotlight, new fans, new refrigerator, new separate freezer, new shower sump, new bronze windlass, new auto pilot, new radar, new plotter, new deck washdown, new cockpit shower, swim platformed removed and powder coater, new stainless boarding ladder for it, new underwater lighting, new 2700 water cooled diesel genset, new 3000 watt inverter charger, new house battery bank, additional 8 breaker BlueSea DC panel, new upholstery including foam throughout, new bilge alarm, new raw water temp alarm, new bonding system and galvanic isolator, all thru-hulls removed and new thru-hulls and seacocks for below water line, above waterline rebuilt and replaced, interior finished, two hatches added to pilot house, new headliners throughout, dinghy davits, new freshwater pump, bilge and sump pumps, all hoses replaced, bottom sanded to glass and epoxy coated probably nothing.
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Old 04-18-2012, 06:04 PM   #22
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Hey...I didn't say it couldn't be insured for more...get together with your insurance co. and ask them if a surveyor of their choice will give a higher agreed upon value...I'm sure they will...my agent (friend) knows all I'm doing to my boat. He said make sure we add your other dingy and all the work you just did. Because of him, I may not have to go the survey route...but he seemed to think raising the insured value was no problem.
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Old 04-18-2012, 06:35 PM   #23
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Anode having seen your photo's of Scout's restoration I think it is one of the few boats around that you could realistically say 'it's better than new', any good surveyor would recognise that, the same way as any decent surveyor would recognise a run down , delapidated wreck that may have been Scout's sister ship once. I guess that somewhere someone has set down the price range from best to worst for your boat based on an 'agreed' value for the boat rather than replacement value.

FWIW, I think Scout probably sits at the very top of that price range, and it's a credit to you both for what you have achieved. What really impressed me from your restoration photo's was that you had his & her Fein tools, now that's a true partnership.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:12 PM   #24
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Apparently, yacht brokers think like insurance companies so there must be something to it. I have my boat listed with a broker for sale. I am also making some modifications and improvements because if the boat don't sell, we are still going cruising inland anyway, even if we do it with the sailboat.
My broker keeps reminding me that I wont see much, if any, extra money in the sale of the boat. The nicer the boat looks will definitely help make the sale, but probably wont bring in any more money. My boat is a 1976 model and in very good condition, however, it's age pretty well determines it's value.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:24 PM   #25
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Hey Andy G - Thank you very much for the kind words. They are very much appreciated. It has been a long journey and a lot of fun along the way.
psneed - No problemo my friend. I have no doubt that Scout will get insured for an appropriate amount. It not...it has little if any impact on my financial well being.

Thanks everyone for your input.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:32 PM   #26
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Anode

That is a very impressive body of work. I'd guess that a written copy of the list accompamied by a survey (if needed) should easily raise your insured value.

Good job.
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:53 PM   #27
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Travelers insurance is covering my 48lrc for agreed price.

I had to send pictures in detail and my current survey to renew insurance last year. Travelers had insured based on my purchase price bit got nervous once I finally got it to California. Once they saw current pictures I had no problem getting what I wanted. What we are seeing around here with older boats as insurance required survey's to renew existing policy's.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:38 AM   #28
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What a great thread, I was considering calling the insurance company this week!
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:24 AM   #29
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Hey Anode, Just saw the link and read your Blog. Scout was lucky to find you and the Admiral. Very well done!
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:24 AM   #30
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In the end, and it's been said, financially, our boat is worth what a buyer is willing to pay for it. Personally, it's worth the enjoyment it gives us.
well said.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:51 AM   #31
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To make this easy to understand, lets say you own a 1998 Fort Pinto. You rebuild the engine and transmission, reupholster the interior, have all the dents removed and have it repainted, all the chrome redone, and install a killer stereo system. The next day, it's stolen.

The insurance company will pay you the book value of a 1998 Ford Pinto.

When I first bought my (previously owned) boat, the insurance company asked me how much I wanted to insure it for. I insured it for what I paid for it plus $5K for electronics I was planning on installing.

Once the boat was over ten years old, they contacted me and told me it could no longer be insured for an "agreed value", it would only be insured for "actual value". They didn't say, but I'm assuming that's what other boats like mine are selling for at the time.

The $5K of electronics, electric windlass, AGM batteries, inverter, new teak and holly cabin floor, etc. won't change things.
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:08 AM   #32
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How's this for a twist to the above tale. Several years ago my insurance co asked me to get a survey so they could establish the current market value, because of its age. They even recommended a surveyor, so as the one I used when I bought her was not available, I went with him. he did a thorough inspection, including a lift out of the water, (at my cost of course), and took a lot of photos etc. He submitted a good detailed report. The trouble was, when I asked him why he had not put a market value on her, which was the main point of the exercise, he said, "Im a surveyor, not a broker, I don't do valuations."
I fear the magic 5 yr interval is about up again, and I'm wondering how I am going to remain 'polite' when they ask for the 'valuation survey' again.
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:09 AM   #33
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Here's 2 companies definition of "what they pay/cover"

For Agreed Hull Value Policies (Yacht Policy, Anglerís Best and Anglerís Bass Boat Program), we will pay you the Agreed Hull Value in the event of a total loss. Repairs for Partial Loss on boating equipment are covered on a "new for old" basis, although specific items are subject to depreciation.
The insurance policies offered by American Marine Insurance are almost always AGREED VALUE policies. Agreed Value policies pay the full insured value shown on the policy declarations page in the event of a total loss. Agreed Value policies do not depreciate hull value so you always know what you will be paid.
My understanding is that they will insure your boat for whatever they, you and some sort or appraisal/survey agrees upon (agreed value). I'm pretty sure that after the "safety/insurance survey" to cover their butt so the boat doesn't sink/catch fire right away...the only reason they want that "appaisal/survey" is so they aren't pulled into your "fraud" if you try and insure a boat for way more than it's worth.

But for most of us...they'll insure the boat for almost anything we ask for within reason...but they want some kind of "protection" if we drastically change the policy from their last coverage...especially so they know how to competitively charge for the premium change to cover the insured.

The isurance really isn't based upon the price of other boats because the prices (selling, asking, blue book) are all over the map. They wait for the surveyors "estimated market value" and go from there. If you wanna change...they want that 3rd party confirmation of "agreed value".
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:12 AM   #34
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How's this for a twist to the above tale. Several years ago my insurance co asked me to get a survey so they could establish the current market value, because of its age. They even recommended a surveyor, so as the one I used when I bought her was not available, I went with him. he did a thorough inspection, including a lift out of the water, (at my cost of course), and took a lot of photos etc. He submitted a good detailed report. The trouble was, when I asked him why he had not put a market value on her, which was the main point of the exercise, he said, "Im a surveyor, not a broker, I don't do valuations."
I fear the magic 5 yr interval is about up again, and I'm wondering how I am going to remain 'polite' when they ask for the 'valuation survey' again.
I've heard the same a few times...not all surveyors will do a valuation survey but that's pretty rare in my experience...

Next time you need to do one...make sure that they advertise that they will do a valuation for your insurance.
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:53 AM   #35
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Yes, I guess as it was the insurance company wanting the 'valuation' who recommended the guy, that they had used him before, and that he therefore did valuations. More fool me.
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:00 AM   #36
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I've heard the same a few times...not all surveyors will do a valuation survey but that's pretty rare in my experience...

Next time you need to do one...make sure that they advertise that they will do a valuation for your insurance.
Aren't all surveys done to evaluate the condition of the vessel and it's market value? Over the last 26 years we have had 9 surveys on 4 different boats. Some for purchase and some required every 2-3 years by the insurance company (s). In every case, the surveyor did a valuation or market value for the vessel (s). This is what the the insurance company used to set the premiums and assign a value for the vessel in case of loss. Also, if you are taking a loan for the purchase of a vessel, isn't the surveys market value the bases for the loan?
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:05 AM   #37
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http://www.promarinesurveys.com/SurveyTypes.htm

Pre-Purchase – Condition and Value
This is the most comprehensive type of inspection and is strongly advised before agreeing to purchase any used vessel. Many Insurance companies will normally not provide Boat Insurance for used boats without a current marine survey. Many clients also request a Pre-Purchase Condition & Value survey when they want to sell their boat so they can find and correct any known problems before listing the vessel for sale. The condition and overall operation of the entire vessel is thoroughly inspected including such items as structural integrity including the bottom and underwater machinery (if hauled), the superstructure, electrical systems, propulsion and fuel systems, steering, navigation and miscellaneous on-board systems like generators and air conditioning units, electronics, safety gear and interior portions accessed in a non-destructive manner. Moisture and/or delamination checks are made on the vessels hull, top deck and stringers.
The final report will reference compliance with United States Code of Federal Regulations, US Coast Guard, American Boat and Yacht Council and National Fire Protection Association standards. All recommendations are clearly defined. Fair market value, replacement cost and general remarks regarding the overall condition of the vessel are always included.
NOTE: It should be noted that it is highly recommended that the vessel be hauled out for complete bottom and underwater machinery inspection. The haul out yard charges are separate and not a part of the survey fees.

Insurance - Condition and Value
The Insurance Condition & Value survey is for current owners who have changed Insurance Companies or have been requested by their Insurance Co to obtain a current Marine Survey. This inspection is necessary for the insurance company to determine whether or not the vessel is an acceptable risk. They are interested in parts of the vessel related to structural integrity, safety and suitability for its intended use. High-risk systems related to fuel, ventilation, exhaust, and steering are some examples of inspected areas. Electronics are noted with serial no's if available but are not tested for insurance surveys. A sea trial normally is not required and the report is very similar to the pre-purchase condition and value survey. Most insurance companies require a survey on older boats and will also want to know the vessels fair market value and replacement cost.
You should check with your insurance company as many insurance companies will request a haul out to have the bottom and underwater machinery inspected. The haul out yard charges are separate and not a part of the survey fees.
This type of survey should not be misconstrued as being a more detailed buyer’s pre-purchase condition survey and is not intended to be assumed as such.

Yacht Appraisal Inspection
An appraisal is an inspection to gather enough information to justify or determine the fair market value of the vessel. This is normally needed for financing, estate settlements, donations and legal cases. The equipment on board, general maintenance, overall condition, same vessel selling prices and the current economy are all considered when determining the fair market value.

Damage Survey
A damage inspection is performed for an Insurance Company to assess the extent of damage to the vessel, recommend repairs, assess estimated repair costs and if requested, the probable cause.
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:18 AM   #38
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......."Im a surveyor, not a broker, I don't do valuations."

I'm sure that is quite rare and frankly, I wouldn't hire someone like that. Sounds like he has an ego problem. All they have to do is the blue book thing or get the info from Yachtworld.com. My wild guess is that 95% of all survey's performed are required for "Pre-Purchase" insurance valuations, bank loans. or both in addition to the on-going every 5 year thing for insurance companies. Most of us buy a boat and want a survey performed so we know if there are any problems and what to expect but we usually also need the survey for insurance purposes which must have a valuation assigned to it.
A good surveyor will usually spend about 4 - 6 hours or more on the "in-the-water" part of the survey. Then comes the 'sea trial' and the haulout. With all of this, he can't spend 5 to 10 more minutes on a 'valuation'?
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:23 AM   #39
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My surveyor put a value on my boat. So did a different surveyor for a friend's boat.

As I said above, the real monetary value is what a buyer is willing to pay for your boat, not what a surveyor or broker says it is worth. My broker told me my previous boat was worth $30K and listed it for that. Over a year later, it sold for $11.5K. That's what it was worth.

BTW: My insurance company never asked for a survey.
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:41 AM   #40
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1998 Fort Pinto
Pinto! ....and here I was thinking vintage Land Rover.

I'm currently insured for 'agreed value' of $35,000. Anybody want to buy Scout for that?
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