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Old 02-17-2015, 05:38 PM   #81
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fstbttms,

I might agree that you can be right, one man's fouling is another's clean bottom. Our water temperature is now a cool 26 degrees (and that is as hot as it gets!) and it gets down to upper teens in the winter. I did a test on 12 different AFs, there is some thread drift here from props - sorry - and the cheaper end of the spectrum fouled early, really early - like within 3 months of application, but the expensive end of the spectrum stayed clean for 12 months (and by clean I mean - nothing), one of the top 4 performers was Micron 66. The paints were painted water line to keel in strips 12 a side (38' long), and being a catamaran with 4 sides we were able to mix the paint order - so everyone had a fair share. Some paints fouled very quickly and would need a diver, regularly (which included Micron Extra) - but it seems more sensible to pay a little bit extra and dispense with the diver (sorry if this detracts from your business model). I fully accept that Micron 66 and Sea Quantum Ultra are not cheap - but then neither is a diver (or not round here).

In addition to Micron 66 the other good paints were Jotun Sea Quantum Ultra, which we will apply in 2 weeks time, Altex No 5 (which we have on now) and ABC 3. None of this is useful to anyone outside Oz, which is why I had not mentioned it earlier - Jotun have different names for their paints round the world, so I do not know what Sea Quantum might be outside Oz, Altex No 5 is a local paint (NZ I think) and ABC 3 is American - but again is renamed (or not even available) elsewhere. Moreover - because of different environmental standards paint formulations, including Micron 66 vary country to country and our Micron 66 will/may have subtle differences to yours wherever yours may be).

The paint panel test was conducted in parallel to the prop treatment test, but we only have 2 props so it has taken longer to get to the end.

As far as I know prop formations are the same internationally, PropSpeed is the same wherever. But AF are really complex, different fouling rates in different but adjacent areas, different vessel usage practices (and my idea of low usage is another man's active use) and different formulations make comparisons and recommendations very difficult and as prone to arguments as some other sensitive topics ( so I had intended to stay well clear!). So I'd rather restrict my AF comments to Oz questions (which might merit a different thread), except to say that AF performance vary enormously.

Jonathan
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Old 02-17-2015, 05:46 PM   #82
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I did a test on 12 different AFs, there is some thread drift here from props - sorry - and the cheaper end of the spectrum fouled early, really early - like within 3 months of application, but the expensive end of the spectrum stayed clean for 12 months (and by clean I mean - nothing), one of the top 4 performers was Micron 66.
In my extensive experience, I have never found any anti fouling paint that will stay clean for 12 months here in the Bay Area.

This is a 3-month old Micron 66 bottom in Point Richmond, CA. This kind of fouling is typical even on brand new paint here. While this is not heavy growth, it is certainly enough to affect perfomance.

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Old 02-17-2015, 05:51 PM   #83
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As soon as the replacement for my bent port prop shaft arrives my boat gets hauled again and Propspeed is on the list, for the first time. I`m also in Sydney, my hull a/f, Jotun Seaguardian, ablative, is still effective after 18 months, outlasting hard a/f on the running gear, so by going to Propspeed I might get 2 years total from antifouling.
As to diving on/cleaning off a/f, if ablative and the cleaning is mechanical like brush/cloth/sponge, that`s pretty much the end of the a/f. Unless like Bowline, a Sydney contractor,they use compressed air jets to blow the slime etc off.
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Old 02-17-2015, 05:59 PM   #84
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As to diving on/cleaning off a/f, if ablative and the cleaning is mechanical like brush/cloth/sponge, that`s pretty much the end of the a/f.
Sorry, that simply isn't true.
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Old 02-17-2015, 06:37 PM   #85
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I had wondered if you took one of these very cheap power washers and used it underwater - would it work (on props or hull). I can see it being more useful on a prop (hence the reason for raising it) as its a small area with lots of fiddly bits - a hull might simply be too large unless you dive (or use a diver). If it, the cheap power washer, corroded because you used sea water (or even if you used freshwater) or it was used in seawater - if it worked it would be cheaper than a diver (here). a cheap power washer here, Karcher the like, costs well under US$100 - I'm not sure how much diver time you would get for that?

But the hull you show Fstbttms looks as if it has not been used, much, but I would part agree with Bruce, if there is any hard or tenacious tenacious you will need a bit of vim and vigour to remove, which will be the same vim and vigour removing some of the expensive ablative AF. If you are to restrict cleaning to a gentle wipe (with no vessel movement to allow the vessel to auto' clean) - then you will need to clean very regularly and if you are cleaning that regularly I'd suggest investing in CopperCoat (or whatever the American equivalent is). The whole philosophy behind ablative (and all prop treatments) is movement, which can be a regular run, or a regular wipe or an irregular bit of vim and vigour. But wiping gently should be no better nor different to a regular run.

I must get back to discussing props!

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Old 02-17-2015, 06:49 PM   #86
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I had wondered if you took one of these very cheap power washers and used it underwater - would it work (on props or hull). I can see it being more useful on a prop (hence the reason for raising it) as its a small area with lots of fiddly bits - a hull might simply be too large unless you dive (or use a diver). If it, the cheap power washer, corroded because you used sea water (or even if you used freshwater) or it was used in seawater - if it worked it would be cheaper than a diver (here).
A pressure washer should never be used underwater on any surface that you'd like the paint to remain upon. The reason being that to be effective underwater you need a unit that delivers at least 4 gallons per minute at relatively high pressure (I use a 4200 psi unit.) Because the washer has to overcome the ambient water pressure to work, the spray tip must be placed very close to the surface being cleaned. At the distances and pressures we're talking about, it is pretty much impossible to not blast anti fouling paint off whatever surface the gun is aimed at. I use mine on unpainted running gear only.

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But the hull you show Fstbttms looks as if it has not been used, much, but I would part agree with Bruce, if there is any hard growth you will need a bit of vim and vigour to remove, which will be the same vim and vigour removing some of the expensive ablative AF. If you are to restrict cleaning to a gentle wipe (with no vessel movement to allow the vessel to auto' clean) - then you will need to clean very regularly and if you are cleaning that regularly I'd suggest investing in CopperCoat (or whatever the American equivalent is). The whole philosophy behind ablative (and all prop treatments) is movement, which can be a regular run, or a regular wipe or an irregular bit of vim and vigour. But wiping gently should be no better nor different to a regular run.
The boat in question is a regular racer. I cannot vouch for how often the boat had been used between splashing with new Micron 66 and the first cleaning 3 months later, but it certainly had been used. The fact of the matter is that in California, there is no anti fouling product available that will keep a bottom even reasonably clean without regular dive service. If you do not keep a boat here and advise otherwise, you do so out of ignorance.

As far as Coppercoat, goes, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. For example:

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Old 02-17-2015, 08:47 PM   #87
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Micron 66 is great if you keep the boat in salt water. Even brackish water can cause the paint to fail.
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Old 02-17-2015, 08:49 PM   #88
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I submit that your mooring is not not actually in a region of high fouling. Either that or you have a high tolerance for a foul bottom. In-water hull cleaning is a regular, necessary part of year-round boat maintenance in places like California, Florida and one would think, much (if not all) of Austrailia. I service many hundreds of boats here in the Bay Area (both power and sail), and there is not one amonst them that does not require regular hull cleaning, regardless of use frequency or anti fouling paint type.
I guess it depends on your definition of "regular", how often you use your boat and I can only speak to Florida for the most part but with the correct bottom and running gear paint/treatment you should not be getting any significant growth on your hull that needs regular tending to. Certainly not monthly. In fact to much regular scrubbing can shorten the life of your paint.
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Old 02-17-2015, 09:07 PM   #89
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I guess it depends on your definition of "regular", how often you use your boat and I can only speak to Florida for the most part but with the correct bottom and running gear paint/treatment you should not be getting any significant growth on your hull that needs regular tending to. Certainly not monthly. In fact to much regular scrubbing can shorten the life of your paint.
That's funny. I know any number of dive services doing land office business in Florida. And I have heard anecdotally that monthly cleanings are de rigeur there. Maybe it depends on specific location. In California, anywhere from 6 to 15 cleanings a year are typical with quality anti fouling paints performing well for 3+ years.
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Old 02-17-2015, 09:23 PM   #90
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That's funny. I know any number of dive services doing land office business in Florida. And I have heard anecdotally that monthly cleanings are de rigeur there. Maybe it depends on specific location. In California, anywhere from 6 to 15 cleanings a year are typical with quality anti fouling paints performing well for 3+ years.
Yes there are plenty of hull cleaning ops here. And yes they do seem to be able to convince many people that monthly bottom cleanings are necessary.

Almost makes you wonder why anybody bothers with putting bottom paint on at all. Since it's apparently so ineffective here.
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Old 02-17-2015, 09:25 PM   #91
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Micron 66 is great if you keep the boat in salt water. Even brackish water can cause the paint to fail.
Blue Yonder

All our testing was conducted in pristine water, in a group of moorings off a swimming beach and our results with Micron 66 were stunning, compared to some other AF. The bay opens to the Tasman Sea. But you mention that it is not quite so effective in brackish water and I have heard less than enthusiastic comment from one person in a marina (which might suggest any number of factors).

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Old 02-17-2015, 09:34 PM   #92
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That's funny. I know any number of dive services doing land office business in Florida. And I have heard anecdotally that monthly cleanings are de rigeur there. Maybe it depends on specific location. In California, anywhere from 6 to 15 cleanings a year are typical with quality anti fouling paints performing well for 3+ years.
From what I gather from other boaters in our PNW marina, a dive every six months seems typical for owners willing to pay for this service (like us). Since divers are no longer allowed to actually wipe down bottoms anymore the service consists of knocking off barnacles, changing zincs, and checking the condition of the bottom paint, through hulls, and running gear.

The people we know who have used a prop coating have reported less than stirling results with it. According to them, the coatings are pretty well shot in terms of effectiveness within a year. Now these are bosts the get used fairly regularly year round. For a boat that is given a prop treatment and then just sits, I don't know how long the coating is effective.

Growth does not seem to be as much of an issue here as barnacles.
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:03 PM   #93
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But you mention that it is not quite so effective in brackish water and I have heard less than enthusiastic comment from one person in a marina (which might suggest any number of factors).
Micron 66 is not simply "not quite so effective in brackish water", it is ruined by it. Micron 66 requires a specific salinity level to work at all and deprived of this for even a short time, is essentially "killed."
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:05 PM   #94
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Since divers are no longer allowed to actually wipe down bottoms anymore...
This is not the case. Ablative paints cannot be cleaned in Washington but all others can.
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:12 PM   #95
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That's funny. I know any number of dive services doing land office business in Florida. And I have heard anecdotally that monthly cleanings are de rigeur there. Maybe it depends on specific location. In California, anywhere from 6 to 15 cleanings a year are typical with quality anti fouling paints performing well for 3+ years.
Not wishing to get into any argument over this, all I can say is the water where my boat is berthed is in Southeast Queensland, and our climate is similar to that of Florida I've been told, yet here is my (boat's) bottom, just hauled before even a spray down, after 3 & years in the water, with only occasional use - often not out for weeks at a time, (sadly), and here is the result, with Micron Extra, and PropSpeed, and never a diver went near it. However, I often see fish having a go at the few growths one sees around the waterline. Maybe we have great boat-bottom feeding fish..?

The performance was down maybe half a knot max, and it appeared to have lasted just as well as the 3 years I got with Micron 66 previously, and the Extra is quite a bit cheaper. When you ran your hand over it, other than where there were some barnacles, like the rudder foot, it still felt quite smooth and slippery.

I almost felt like saying to the guy, hey just give her a good squirt and we'll plop her back in - just kidding, but only just - but she needed an insurance survey as well, so had to come out.
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:14 PM   #96
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This is not the case. Ablative paints cannot be cleaned in Washington but all others can.
Not in our harbor. According to the dive service and the Port the wiping down of bottoms is not allowed, period. This has been the case for many years now.

I have no idea what the state requirements are, or even if there are any. But in our harbor, no bottom wipe downs are allowed. The kind of paint makes no difference at all. When the announcement was made in the Port's newsletter, the reason given was environmental. As best I can recall, this requirement was put into effect back in the earlier 2000s.
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:17 PM   #97
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Not wishing to get into any argument over this, all I can say is the water where my boat is berthed is in Southeast Queensland, and our climate is similar to that of Florida I've been told, yet here is my (boat's) bottom, just hauled before even a spray down, after 3 & years in the water, with only occasional use - often not out for weeks at a time, (sadly), and here is the result, with Micron Extra, and PropSpeed, and never a diver went near it. However, I often see fish having a go at the few growths one sees around the waterline. Maybe we have great boat-bottom feeding fish..?
If that represents over three years without a cleaning, then your boat lives in very low fouling waters.

This pic represents about a year's growth on a Coppercoat bottom in Berkeley, CA.

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Old 02-17-2015, 10:18 PM   #98
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Not in our harbor. According to the dive service and the Port the wiping down of bottoms is not allowed, period. This has been the case for many years now.

I have no idea what the state requirements are, or even if there are any. But in our harbor, no bottom wipe downs are allowed. The kind of paint makes no difference at all. When the announcement was made in the Port's newsletter, the reason given was environmental. As best I can recall, this requirement was put into effect back in the earlier 2000s.
That is a marina-specific regulation then. Washington has no edict banning in-water hull cleaning, only the restriction on cleaning ablative paints.

"...hard-coatings and epoxy-based hard paints are now available for boat hulls. They provide a slick surface and they are safe for in-water cleaning."

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wq/no...ting/hull.html
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:31 PM   #99
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That is a marina-specific regulation then. Washington has no edict banning in-water hull cleaning, only the restriction on cleaning ablative paints.
I just looked it all up. The state does not allow the wiping down of bottoms with ablative paint on them (which is what the vast majority of boats up here use, according to their data).

Our harbor uses the Soundkeeper organization's guidelines for boat maintenance and repair, which says that any boat bottom with sloughing paint should not be wiped down, nor a bottom with any other kind of paint where there is a risk of anything come off into the water. I'm guessing our Port folks decided that the easiestr course of action was simply to ban the wiping down of any bottoms, period.

On the other hand, they are pretty liberal with what a person can do to the portion of the boat that's above the water. About the only thing that's flat out not allowed is metal grinding. Washing, sanding, brightwork and painting--- even spray painting on a very small scale with the appropriate enclousure--- are allowed.
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:36 PM   #100
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I wonder how much extra fuel is burned and hydrocarbons are emitted by boats going around with uncleaned bottoms.
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