Naiad Stabilizer repair, please advice

[Gypsy Island]

Hi guys,

my 1988 Island Gypsy 51 has Naiad 252 stabilizers and there is rusty water seeping in when they are in use. As soon as the Naiads are turned off, the seeping stops with some delay.

I asked a Naiad Service partner for a repair offer to do the seals and bearings. Today i received the offer and fortunately i was sitting...

They suggest a complete overhaul of the stabilizers, about 8000 Euro + VAT for parts and 12500 Euro + VAT for labor. Labor should be done by 2 engeneers in 5 days including the trip from Genoa / Italy to Pula / Croatia, which is a one day trip each, so three days for real work.

I'm wondering why they want to do a complete overhaul, although they haven't seen the boat. So I'm a little unsure if I should trust them.

Regarding prices would you consider this offer reliable?

The last option would be to do the job myself. I'm a mechanic so should not be that problem. The only problem might be getting the parts.

Thanks for your thougts and input.

 

[Insequent]

Normal practice is to replace seals every 3 years and every other such service also flush the grease out of the system with new grease. If the seals leak you get corrosion and yes, it can get expensive. Prices you indicate seem high to me, but not excessive if there is significant corrosion. I've had 2 seal replacement services on my 252's to date.

Were it me I would ask for seal replacement and then deal with additional parts if required once the units were pulled apart. Corrosion may not have ruined everything. Just how much you could save with this approach is uncertain, but seals (parts) are only a few hundred. A seal replacement service should be under 2000 total.

But to me the labour looks excessive. Ask for their hourly rate for the 3 days of work. Paying for the 2 travel days is reasonable, but I would expect it to be at a lower rate than the daily work rate. The quote is in effect 1250/man-day. They'd need to be working long days for that to be reasonable IMO.

As to DIY, it often comes down to where special tools are needed. I don't know if this is the case other than for popping the fins off the tapered shaft.

 

[DavidM]

Why don’t you buy the parts from Naid, do the install yourself and any parts you don’t use, save for later?

David

 

[mvweebles]

Looks like they gave you wirer case scenario - replace everything. Maybe negotiate a not-to-exceed number or have the hourly rate itemized so if they finish in 2 days the rate/parts are reduced. If the $12,500 includes travel and expenses, not an awful quote.

A concern would be what happens if warranty work is needed? Suppose it starts to leak again in a month? What happens if the shaft is scored and needs to be repaired or replaced - and the guys need to sit twiddling their thumbs for a day?

Hope it goes well for you.

Peter

 

[Insequent]

.....

If the $12,500 includes travel and expenses, not an awful quote.

......

Hope it goes well for you.

Peter

Good point - I overlooked travel plus food and accomodation for the two guys for 4 nights!

Maybe help/watch them do it this time. Then in 3 years time you do the seals yourself, thats' simple enough once the fins are off. They''ll likely use a hand operated hydrulic puller to do that. Or plan ahead and take the boat to them for that planned maintenance, saving the travel costs etc.

 

[Martin J]

20k Sounds a bit excessive. My last complete overhaul was 16k and include new ram, new top plate, new bearings, tracks etc. It was done by Stabilzed marine 954 797 7330 Craig Calkin/
Used them the last 2 boats, always ready to give advice and send parts. Also has sent instructions with parts and readily will tell you and offer "How To" instructions.

 

[Gypsy Island]

Normal practice is to replace seals every 3 years ...

Hm, i have the original and complete Naiad Manual and according to this they say " Under normal conditions shaft seals should last for hundreds of hours without leaking....nevertheless it is recommended that seals be replaced after 4000 hours of service."

I'll get not more than 200 hours in 3 years. Changing the seals every 3 years seems pretty frequently and costly to me.

 

[Gypsy Island]

A concern would be what happens if warranty work is needed? Suppose it starts to leak again in a month? What happens if the shaft is scored and needs to be repaired or replaced - and the guys need to sit twiddling their thumbs for a day?

Peter

That's exactly my concern too. This company has none of the needed parts in stock they told me. So there is simply the only way to throw anything possible in to avoid a situation where they run out of parts, as the delivery from the US would take a few weeks.

Not to mention a situation where warranty comes into play...probably warranty is to forget.

 

[Gypsy Island]

Why don’t you buy the parts from Naid, do the install yourself and any parts you don’t use, save for later?

David

This thought pleases me more and more. Repairing the Naiads hopefully wouldn't be that big of a problem for me as i'm a mechanic and have most of the tools normally needed for such an operation. If necessary i could make them myself, for example the hydraulic pop out tool.

My biggest concern is to get the parts. So the next step will be to get in contact with Naiad or the suggested dealers to obtain the availability and their willing to deliver the parts.

Fortunately i have this one:

 

[Insequent]

Hm, i have the original and complete Naiad Manual and according to this they say " Under normal conditions shaft seals should last for hundreds of hours without leaking....nevertheless it is recommended that seals be replaced after 4000 hours of service."

I'll get not more than 200 hours in 3 years. Changing the seals every 3 years seems pretty frequently and costly to me.

Much more costly if you don't do it! Its the Naiad staff here, and if I recall correctly also in the PNW, that say that.

Your manual appears to be 1988. My 252's were installed in 2012. So 24 years of user experience and customer feedback could explain the difference. I think I have the manual on the boat, I'll check and update.

 

[Gypsy Island]

Much more costly if you don't do it! Its the Naiad staff here, and if I recall correctly also in the PNW, that say that.

Your manual appears to be 1988. My 252's were installed in 2012. So 24 years of user experience and customer feedback could explain the difference. I think I have the manual on the boat, I'll check and update.

Thank you, would be really interesting if they had modified their recommendation that much.

My boat has about 1500 hours on the meters and i'm pretty sure, that the PO's did nothing but having fun. So the 4000 hour recommendation seem's a bit too optimistic.

 

[Insequent]

Hartmut

I've attached some iphone shots of my manual. On the cover page you will see it is dated Feb 2012, and it has a part number for the manual as well. The Netherlands phone numbers might still be valid for you?

The maintenance section says "3 years or 4000 hours" for the lower seals. But in the text it also says to shorten that interval if the system is not operated at least twice per month. Interesting!

I also attached the page setting out part numbers for recommended on-board spares and optional spares. I carry none of them and in 12 years have never needed any of them. That page lists part numbers for service tools also.

Finally, I attached the exploded diagram which also has part numbers. Apologies if you cant get a readable enlargement from my quick pic. I'd suggest if you are going to DIY then you order a copy of the manual. It is not quite 1cm thick.

I found my Jan 2017 invoice which has detailed costs. Shaft seals (lower) were A$233. Implication there are upper ones as well, and no doubt you should replace bearings given rusty water is coming into the hull. If you are lucky then nothing else needed? Good luck!

 

[Mambo42]

For Italy that is an excessive amount of money. You also have the lift out and the cost of the marina plus the cost of the workers you have to pay to the marina (normally that is 60 euro per day per worker). That would become a very expensive repair.
You may want to think of going to marina Izola in Slovenia. Then call Almi in Umag, they also work on stabilizers, perhaps not directly with Naiad, but would not be surprised if they can.
I don't have the phone number here at the moment, but you can find it on Almi d.o.o. – ACI Marina Umag or e-mail them via info@almi.hr

 

[Gypsy Island]

Insequent,

thanks a lot for your support, i really appreciate that.

I'll write some E-Mails to determine If one of the listed Naiad retailers here in Europe or in the US is willing to deliver the parts directly to me. I'm just not sure whether i should do that as a private person or as a company (my auto repair shop).

As to the manual, i have it from 1988
and to me it seems to cover the most important maintenance and repairs.

According to the exploded view, there are lower seals, upper seals and socalled wipers which seem to be really expensive but i think that's all to be renewed including the bearings. What rised me an eyebrow is that as to the offer of the italian company the bearings are splitted in an inner part and an outer ring. That's physically right, but i've never seen bearings to be sold in separately parts as they are matched to each other.
Also there are some parts double listed.
So there's a big questionmark.

 

[Insequent]

In the first instance I would not contact any Naiad retailers in Europe. Rather, I would contact one of the Naiad subsidiaries, and it looks like they exist UK, France and Netherlands. You can find addresses and contact details on Naiad.com site.

Now they might direct you to a retailer, but they may also be willing to deal directly with you. My supplier in the PNW back in 2012 (Don) was a direct Naiad company employee. He is now retired. My local person in Brisbane also, fortunately, is I believe a direct Naiad employee. He knew Don quite well. There are advantages dealing directly with Naiad staff if it is possible to do so. They have superior knowledge. They are also able to direct you to the most highly regarded service provider near you.

The 252 seems to be a quite long-lived model. Yours is one of the earlier ones, and it will be advisable to quote your serial number when making enquiries as there may have been some subtle changes to parts over the years

 

[Gypsy Island]

Thanks Mambo,

i didn't know of this company "Almi" in Umag, could be very helpful as they are only 1 hour away by car.

Regarding the cost estimate i'm afraid to reach 30 k€ all in all. That's a lot of pain and to be honest not an option without trying to repair it myself.

I'll post it here how it went, but will take some time.

 

[KapnKarl]

Naiad Dynamics US Contact Number

I'm not sure if this will be of help to you but here's a contact number & name I have for Naiad in Connecticut, US from about 6 years ago:
David Yish, Service Mgr Naiad Dynamics
203-929-6365.

 

[Moon]

I had my seals replaced last year. My boat was in Cape Canaveral at the time. A vendor was recommended to me by a trusted friend. The vendor came from several hours away. I had to wait eight months for an appointment! Fortunately another yacht in the yard needed service so we split the travel and accommodations expense. I only had my seals replaced. $3,000.00 US. The service tech earned that money as the previous owner had not replaced the seals for at least 5 years. I was there and watched him struggle attempting to remove the stabilizers. He had several tools and tricks to make his job easier but it still took him all day. I never saw him slacking. If you are going to do it yourself I urge you to watch every YouTube video you can and buy the right tools before you start. Good luck!

 

[Gypsy Island]

I had my seals replaced last year. My boat was in Cape Canaveral at the time. A vendor was recommended to me by a trusted friend. The vendor came from several hours away. I had to wait eight months for an appointment! Fortunately another yacht in the yard needed service so we split the travel and accommodations expense. I only had my seals replaced. $3,000.00 US. The service tech earned that money as the previous owner had not replaced the seals for at least 5 years. I was there and watched him struggle attempting to remove the stabilizers. He had several tools and tricks to make his job easier but it still took him all day. I never saw him slacking. If you are going to do it yourself I urge you to watch every YouTube video you can and buy the right tools before you start. Good luck!

When you have to deal with tapered shafts there's always a risk, that you cannot apply enough force to overcome the seizing.

However in this case there seems to be a workaround as the manual is warning, not to loosen the actuator arm because then the fin could easily fall out completely. So this will be the way to go - disassembling the whole thing from inside out, as this has to be done anyways to renew the bearings.
The downside of this approach is the more difficult installation of the seals as the shaft is missing to aid centering the seals. But that's doable.

On the other side, if the fin with the shaft came out in one piece, i easily could take it home to my own repairshop. Would be much easier.

 

[steve chase]

I replaced the seals on the ocean Alexander that we had. It was not a big deal. If you’re mechanically inclined, you’ll need to get the porta power like the type used in the body shop with spreaders on it and a couple of big sockets. Torque wrenches is recommended but I didn’t have one so just went with what I thought was tight and it’s worked out well for the last eight years An impact also comes in handy and a second person to help hold the fin when it comes loose. It took me about five hours And approximately thousand dollars in parts

 

[Gypsy Island]

I replaced the seals on the ocean Alexander that we had. It was not a big deal. If you’re mechanically inclined, you’ll need to get the porta power like the type used in the body shop with spreaders on it and a couple of big sockets. Torque wrenches is recommended but I didn’t have one so just went with what I thought was tight and it’s worked out well for the last eight years An impact also comes in handy and a second person to help hold the fin when it comes loose. It took me about five hours And approximately thousand dollars in parts

I think there's only one tool i'm missing and that's the hydraulic fin removal adapter. But it's supplied by Naiad, so it should be possible to order directly from them.

How did you manage to loosen the fins? With the spreader?