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Old 02-10-2014, 07:12 PM   #21
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psneeld,

I feel your pain. For as thorough as the survey was on other issues the survey did not even hint at anything about water in the keel. The reason I do most of the maintenance myself is partially my background of growing up on a farm and having to always fix everything coupled with engineering but also the "old very knowledgeable guys that care" techs are not around so much anymore. Now it seems about speed and getting money. I understand people need to make a living but here in Anacortes there are so many high end yachts that the local guys can charge pretty well for their work. I'll do the grunt work and educate myself to know what I have to have a pro do. I don't mind paying, and paying fairly for that work.

I also have other issues that require immediate attention. Apparently that week they wired the 110VAC on my boat in Taiwan the regular guy was out sick and his cousin was covering for him. When I went to change out to GFI circuits I flipped off the breakers and went to work. After getting tickled by a little voltage on the terminals I checked with my meter. I guess it made sense to someone to use the circuit breaker to break the AC RETURN instead of the AC LINE!!! So when I pop a circuit breaker I basically have an energized wire at my outlet, a ground, and a floating AC return! Oh yeah, missed that on the survey as well.

~ Jeff
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:17 PM   #22
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eseyoung,
They make a moisture meter that can read through the FRG I think. They were able to tell me that the decks had apparent moisture. I can only guess if you place that against the keel it would also indicate if there was moisture in there.

I had an old sailboat that used open cell foam under the floorboards. It was also wet in the keel. I think the only answer is to open them up and clean them out so you can reach the water that will inevitably get to the lowest point. I am going to guess that there are a lot of boats out there with water in the keel that people don't know about.
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:57 PM   #23
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Jbear,

I had a a leaky shaft tube as well. One fall I drilled a hole in the keel to let it drain. It was stlii seeping in the spring. The next fall I pulled the prop and shaft, made fittings and pressure tested the tube. You only need 3 or 4 pounds of pressure. It was leaking.

Then cut out the false floor and removed the stinking, discusting, revolting foam. Sazall is your friend. Once the foam was out used the sazall again on the fiberglass tube that looked like it was home made.

A quick web search found Nor'Easter Yachts Nor' Easter Yachts, Inc. - Custom Fiberglass Manufacturing - Milford, CT only 40 ish miles from me where I bought a new tube. Like you I was nervous about the installation so had the yard do it. Seaport Marine in Mystic, CT did a great job.

No leaks for the next few years I had the boat. I posted some pictures on a previous thread on this subject. PM me if you would like me to send them to you.

Rob
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:05 PM   #24
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2 different ways to cover a bilge - with and without.

Iím sure that most of you have noticed that most of the trawler style motor yachts in the 38 to 41 foot range are similar on the interior and exterior.

I wonít go into why that is here.

The Jensen Marine 40 (built in the USA) is different and IĒll tell you how in one important way around the stern tube.

Unlike the Taiwan trawlers, including the DeFever 41, the 40 has no thin layer of glass covering the hollow keel cavity and forefoot voids. The Taiwan builders did cover them,in effect, making a sealed off tank with a top too thin for any structural use.

Jensen was a sailboat builder and those areas were never closed off in their sailboats. So why close them in a motor trawler? I talked to the 40 footer production line foreman and he told me the marketers from PassageMaker, Inc, wanted the bilge covered to look more finished. Mr. Jensen came down on the ďleave it openĒ side.

For the most part these voids are empty, although in a few hulls they may contain some small amount of concrete ballast. Sometimes there are a few small bulkheads that support the shaft tube.

When asked by owners who see my engine room I tell them if they want the same arrangement they can do this

Saw the edge where the sump cover meets the inside of the hull and remove the problem ( Dermal or sawezall ). Once you open the area up you can really clean it and paint it and keep a good eye on it in the future. Leave the bulkheads - cut limber holes.To me itís worth the piece of mind knowing Iím looking at the actual bottom when I lift a floor hatch after colliding with a water borne object.

Yeah a couple of days of hot and dusty work and probably too much for the average owner.

Keep in mind that there is virtually no limit to how a Taiwanese builder can deviate from normal practice.

YMMV

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Old 02-10-2014, 11:16 PM   #25
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Ok. I have to ask. What is a stern tube?

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Old 02-11-2014, 07:20 AM   #26
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Ok. I have to ask. What is a stern tube?

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What I am talking about is really a shaft log (stern tube is another name commonly used)

It's a tube that goes through the hull to form a watertight seal preventing leaking into the hull. It usually has the stuffing box at one end and a cutless bearing carrier at the outer end screwed on to it
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:24 AM   #27
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wait. now i am confused. I thought that the term 'shaft log' referred to the bearing where the shaft exited the keel. So i know that is that bearing called? would that be considered a cutlass?
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:39 AM   #28
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wait. now i am confused. I thought that the term 'shaft log' referred to the bearing where the shaft exited the keel. So i know that is that bearing called? would that be considered a cutlass?
I think there's been overlap as new techniques and designs have come about,,,

The cutless that bolts to the back of the keel is actually a "bearing carrier or housing" and the cutlass bearing itself can be removed. On the inside, the stuffing box is usually clamed to a shot piece of hose that is in turn clamped to the inner part of a shaft log or stern tube. Sometimes the tube is nothing more than a tube of glass that is part of the yll and it's just a hole drilled through...on some boats it's a glass, bronze or stainless tube that has accessories to do different things screwed onto either end.

The picture is a "bearing housing" from Buck Algonquin..go through their catalog and see what names they give to the different parts as they have been around awhile...

the origin of the word "shaft log" comes from the heavy timber section that the shaft went through on wooden boats.....
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:39 AM   #29
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How did you discover? Is there a easy non destructive way to tell? I can't believe that an owner would be fond of the idea of drill a hole in the keel during a pre purchase survey.
.
Bought the boat in upstate NY Nov, and decided to leave it there for the winter.
In the spring as I was doing prep work to bring her back to CT, I saw water dripping out of the keel. Finally discovering that I could not seal it while it was leaking, I decided to put in a drain plug. Then I fiberglass repaired all the area from the outside.
During that summer I found the old screws in the bilge that held the pump. I looked there because a friend had a 36 Albin with water in the keel from poor fiberglass work inside the bilge under the engine. Mine was sound there so I started looking harder and found the screw holes.
I vacuumed them out, cleaned the area and glassed the holes.
Now there is no leak.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:37 PM   #30
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What I am talking about is really a shaft log (stern tube is another name commonly used)

It's a tube that goes through the hull to form a watertight seal preventing leaking into the hull. It usually has the stuffing box at one end and a cutless bearing carrier at the outer end screwed on to it
Thanks, the shaft tube I fully understand. It was the slang term that had me confused. Your definition is perfect by the way.

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Old 02-11-2014, 09:20 PM   #31
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The smell was probably the rotted keel timber. Generally they used a large peice of wood in the mold then glassed over it. If the "glass was soft on top of it you gotta big problem. Its probably not a major structural member (the wood), especially if the hull was laid up heavy enough in the keel area. When you have it hauled just drill a big hole in the lowest place, at the stern, let it drain until it stops then put a vacuum pump on it for awhile. Drill a hole in the forward area of the keel as high as possible and tap it for a 3/4 inch npt nipple. Gravity feed denatured alcohol until it comes out the back. Then you have to decide what you want to do next, cut it out or fill it. From your post I dont think you want to spend the bucks to have it cut out and repaired. Therefor, CPES is your new best friend. Lots of it, flooded just like the alcohol. Pour it in until it comes out the back, plug that hole and gravity feed until it wont take no more You will be surprised at how much water the CPES will "chase" out.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:37 PM   #32
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The smell was probably the rotted keel timber. Generally they used a large peice of wood in the mold then glassed over it. If the "glass was soft on top of it you gotta big problem. Its probably not a major structural member (the wood), especially if the hull was laid up heavy enough in the keel area. When you have it hauled just drill a big hole in the lowest place, at the stern, let it drain until it stops then put a vacuum pump on it for awhile. Drill a hole in the forward area of the keel as high as possible and tap it for a 3/4 inch npt nipple. Gravity feed denatured alcohol until it comes out the back. Then you have to decide what you want to do next, cut it out or fill it. From your post I dont think you want to spend the bucks to have it cut out and repaired. Therefor, CPES is your new best friend. Lots of it, flooded just like the alcohol. Pour it in until it comes out the back, plug that hole and gravity feed until it wont take no more You will be surprised at how much water the CPES will "chase" out.
none of that would work on my trawler....plus no keel timber (rotted or not) in any glass trawler I have looked over or discussed with other owners.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:42 PM   #33
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So any rough ideas on how much a keel of a 40 ft boat may hold? at a price of $1000 per 10 gal I hope not much. I admit that I had to Google to find out what cpes is.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:55 PM   #34
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So any rough ideas on how much a keel of a 40 ft boat may hold? at a price of $1000 per 10 gal I hope not much. I admit that I had to Google to find out what cpes is.
My keel I suspect could hold 50-75 gallons...but do you really know what's going on inside of your boat's keel and shaft log area? I didn't till I pulled my shaft and ground a big hole into my keel and boroscoped everything.

Drilling a few holes and flushing/filling might be a great idea...could also be a complete waste of time and material...unless you know what you have and how it's laid out.
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:02 AM   #35
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Yeah, hopefully I didn't give off the wrong impression. If there is something wrong, dangerous, or simply needing repaired I am going to do it. I have torn apart boats before and I'm not scared to use a sawzall! I am just trying to get the most information I can to plan the attack. I plan to have the stern tube pressure tested to verify its integrity. Based on that answer, I will plan out the next step. I already plan to take out the bilge/keel frp and open up the keel and take whatever is in there out. I have pretty good OCD and won't be able to sleep until I find out what is in there. I think the right fix is based on what is truly wrong. If the stern tube passes, then still getting into the keel to clean it out.
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Old 02-12-2014, 06:58 PM   #36
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If you want to know what is in there just drill a plug hole and look at it. Then put a pump on it and suck the crap out and put it overboard. Pump it for a few weeks and it will probably clear up and quit stinkin. "rotted" is probably the wrong term for the wet timber, more like "pickled" or "stagnent". CPES is not the end all do all stuff. You can get a 1 to 1 epoxy from U.S. composites that is a lot cheaper. Thin it about 30% with MEK, up to 50% is ok but it gets rubbery. Way cheaper and works just as good for your application.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:00 PM   #37
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Replacing the keel timber in a yard is not gonna be cheap, probably more than you paid for the boat.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:05 PM   #38
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PSNeeld, from the pics your "keel" will not get close to that figure, maybe 20 gallons. Measure it and let us know. Hydraulic concrete is not a bad idea for filling a keel, and cheap.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:32 PM   #39
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PSNeeld, from the pics your "keel" will not get close to that figure, maybe 20 gallons. Measure it and let us know. Hydraulic concrete is not a bad idea for filling a keel, and cheap.
I did...QUITE accurately...another trawler forum "guess" from pictures.....unbelievable....

Plus there's NO WOOD in most of out keels...what are you thinking????

stringers yes...keels no....
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Old 02-12-2014, 09:06 PM   #40
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I think the stink comes from the organisms in the salt water that die and decompose. As paneeld said, and in my case, no wood in the keel.

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