Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 06-28-2016, 11:46 AM   #1
Guru
 
Lou_tribal's Avatar
 
City: Quebec
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Bleuvet
Vessel Model: Custom Built
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,783
Hydraulic steering rebuild

Hello,
I am a proud new owner of a 30' custom built trawler and I recently found out that the hydraulic steering cylinder is leaking a bit.
I would like to fix this by changing the current cylinder by a new one and see afterward if the current cylinder can be rebuilt.
Regarding this work to be done, as a newbie I have some questions:
1. Can replacing a cylinder be done while the boat is in the water, I guess so but I would like to be sure before taking everything apart and realizing I am doing something wrong.
2. I cannot determine what is the model of my current cylinder as the sticker on it as been damaged by the time. I know that the steering wheel is 6 turn end to end and I suspect the cylinder to be (or be very similar) to a teleflex HC5314 (seastar BA150-7ATM). What should I check to be sure it will fit before ordering the part?
3. Currently my cylinder is fitted using copper pipe. All the pipe for hydraulic fluid are copper and are fitted directly onto the cylinder. I would personally say that it is not the best as it is creating a solid rigid coupling and I would be enclined to better use flexible hose for the coupling between the copper pipe and the cylinder. What do you think about that?
4. Do you have any recommendation for me before I start this? I would say I am quite handy and I like to do things by myself so I am not scared to do it, I just want to do the right thing once and for all

Many thanks for your time and answers.
__________________
Advertisement

Lou_tribal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2016, 12:47 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Keysdisease's Avatar
 
City: South Florida
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 436
1. Can replacing a cylinder be done while the boat is in the water, YES

2. I cannot determine what is the model of my current cylinder as the sticker on it as been damaged by the time. I know that the steering wheel is 6 turn end to end and I suspect the cylinder to be (or be very similar) to a teleflex HC5314 (seastar BA150-7ATM). What should I check to be sure it will fit before ordering the part?

You are probably right on with your guess. The part number means BA (balanced) 150 (1.5" Dia) 7 (7" travel). That size is what would have been recommended for a 30 ft boat, and for a custom boat the parts would have typically been bought through a Distributor and Teleflex / Sea Star is the most popular brand. When you get it out compare it and the helm to pictures of Sea Star likes and measure the cylinder diameter.

3. Currently my cylinder is fitted using copper pipe. All the pipe for hydraulic fluid are copper and are fitted directly onto the cylinder. I would personally say that it is not the best as it is creating a solid rigid coupling and I would be inclined to better use flexible hose for the coupling between the copper pipe and the cylinder. What do you think about that?

YES, what you want to do is current best practice, make a rigid termination a couple of feet from the ram and transition to flexible for the last couple of feet.

4. Do you have any recommendation for me before I start this?

What you want to do is very straight forward, and by replacing with new and rebuilding the leaking ram for a back up you make it even simpler.

Good luck and congrats on the new boat




Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou_tribal View Post
Hello,
I am a proud new owner of a 30' custom built trawler and I recently found out that the hydraulic steering cylinder is leaking a bit.
I would like to fix this by changing the current cylinder by a new one and see afterward if the current cylinder can be rebuilt.
Regarding this work to be done, as a newbie I have some questions:
1. Can replacing a cylinder be done while the boat is in the water, I guess so but I would like to be sure before taking everything apart and realizing I am doing something wrong.
2. I cannot determine what is the model of my current cylinder as the sticker on it as been damaged by the time. I know that the steering wheel is 6 turn end to end and I suspect the cylinder to be (or be very similar) to a teleflex HC5314 (seastar BA150-7ATM). What should I check to be sure it will fit before ordering the part?
3. Currently my cylinder is fitted using copper pipe. All the pipe for hydraulic fluid are copper and are fitted directly onto the cylinder. I would personally say that it is not the best as it is creating a solid rigid coupling and I would be enclined to better use flexible hose for the coupling between the copper pipe and the cylinder. What do you think about that?
4. Do you have any recommendation for me before I start this? I would say I am quite handy and I like to do things by myself so I am not scared to do it, I just want to do the right thing once and for all

Many thanks for your time and answers.
__________________

Keysdisease is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2016, 12:52 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
obthomas's Avatar
 
City: Seabrook Texas
Country: USA
Vessel Name: TheVenture
Vessel Model: 1985 Bestway Labelle Sundeck 40ft
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 460
First, you need flexible connections to the cylinder. Second, these cylinders are not rocket science. They use standard seals that leak in time. If you can measure you can order/buy the necessary seals. It's easy. I would not buy a new cylinder unless yours is damaged or pitted or for some reason new seals will not solve all the problems. Good luck.
obthomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2016, 12:55 PM   #4
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,469
About the only thing you can do is replace the cylinder seals and have the pump serviced. If you extend the shaft all the way the whole thing can be checked out. I'd take them out and take or send them to a facility that does that. Or send them to Harbor Marine in Everett WA where I had my cylinder done.
The hoses should be as most are always in the dark copper tubes should be checked for corrosion but problems are unlikly w them too.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2016, 04:52 PM   #5
Guru
 
City: Full Time Cruising East Coast
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Meridian
Vessel Model: Krogen-42
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 736
A good hydraulic shop could turn this around in 24 hours. They rebuild these for trucks and heavy equipment.


Sent from my iPhone using Trawler Forum
__________________
-------------------------
Terry
Meridian
KK-42097
meridian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2016, 08:11 PM   #6
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,469
meridian,
You suppose these seals are not marine items but everyday industrial parts? I got my non-marine hose at an industrial tractor store. Large dia and orange but has been on the boat for 10years. But yes the seals are probably quite common.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2016, 08:32 PM   #7
Guru
 
Lou_tribal's Avatar
 
City: Quebec
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Bleuvet
Vessel Model: Custom Built
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,783
I guess that before taking everything apart it will be easier to set the rudder in a specific position, let say full starboard, so when putting the new one in place I can set it in the same position right away. Then I will need to bleed the line and if I did it right I should be in business

Do you know if the fittings on the cylinder are standard format or proprietary from the manufacturer? In other words, can I use any hydraulic hose or do they make this their own way to force you to buy their own fitting/adapter/hose?

Many thanks to all your answers I am learning every minute I spend on this forum!
Lou_tribal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2016, 08:38 PM   #8
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3
I used these folks, an authorized service center recommended by Teleflex. You can send them your cylinder and they will rebuild it for you. If unrepairable (and unlikely based on your description), they sell new and refurbished units. I would not buy another cylinder unless needed. No connection, just satisfied customer. Agree with comments about a flexible hydraulic hose between copper tube and cylinder.

FLUID TECHNOLOGIES
3477 Lakeshore Blvd.
Jacksonville, FL 32210

Phone: 904-384-9659
Web:www.hydraulicmarinerepair.com
Services:
All products including SeaStar, BayStar, Capilano & Hynautic steering.
jpanara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2016, 10:01 PM   #9
Ted
Guru
 
Ted's Avatar
 
City: Campbell River
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Okisollo
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 579
Rig it with standard fittings, put a tee at each port.
Run line between the tees with a valve in it.
With valve closed turn wheel until steering is hard over.
Open the valve and turn the wheel until air stops coming out.
Close valve and turn wheel in opposite direction until hard over.
Open valve and turn wheel until no more air coming out.
Close valve and test response, run with valve closed.
This should be most of the bleeding if not all.

Ted
Ted is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2016, 11:05 PM   #10
Member
 
fireant4040's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 19
Mine was leaking not too long ago. I have an old Hynautic system with copper lines and fittings. I took mine off and brought it to a hydraulic shop in town for a rebuild. A couple days later I picked it up, installed it, and ran new copper lines from the relief valve to the cylinder. No issues whatsoever since. Any hydraulic shop should be able to rebuild this for you easily. My cost for the rebuild was a little under $140.
fireant4040 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2016, 08:57 PM   #11
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Somewhere
Country: , Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer sedan 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,797
As for bleeding air , work out as much air as possible while doing the typical wheel dance back and forth dockside.

However final bleed may require a boat run with a mild roll and pitch. Often it seems as some bubbles are reluctant to move. The piping may be closer to level than is ideal so air can get stuck. The pitch and roll will allow those pockets to really move. Combine that with the normal wheel dance while running and that likely will be the end of any remaining air in the system.

When done just top up the oil level and check once in a while.
C lectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2016, 09:54 PM   #12
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,004
A cautionary tale ... 4 weeks ago I was hauled for bottom paint and rudder modification. two days later I was launched and while leaving the travel lift a hydraulic line broke and steering went south, I could turn port or starboard but only by continually turning the wheel, no big deal. Next day I lost an entire day getting a new hose made. day after that I put the new hose in and bled the system .... no change ! I bled the system three more times and checked everything for leaks, no leaks. Next I pulled the check valve and lost another day at a hydraulics shop getting it tested, no problem with the check valve. Back to the boat, re-installed the check valve and bled the system three more times .... no change. Next pulled the cylinder and lost another day getting it checked. All the seals were very bad, had it rebuilt and back to the boat. After bleeding the system three more times the damned steering still did not work. I have now gone through the same process with the helm pump and the autopilot pump and at this point have almost three weeks invested in this fiasco. I know everybody in the marine business for miles around and had two respected mechanic buddies with serious hydraulic experience look at it and they could not figure it out either.

I eventually gave up and ordered an entire new Seastar system which arrived today, two weeks after ordering ... we are now up to 5 weeks. This morning I tore out all the old copper lines and even though they had been bled with two gallons of new fluid, the black crap that came out when I cut them was amazing.

OK .. all the old crap is out and I can start running my new Seastar nylon lines (used them on other boats and was happy with them). I ordered two 50foot rolls and received one 50foot and one 25footer. So tomorrow morning I will call and complain and get the right length shipped to me. I guess i have to wait for the right length roll to show up before I have steering again .... Momma said there would be days like this. she never said anything about weeks.

PS. The new helm pump is not a direct replacement so I have to rebuild my entire bloody helm station to accomodate the new one ..... bloody hell, sometimes I hate boats.
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2016, 10:18 PM   #13
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,004
Quote:
Originally Posted by fireant4040 View Post
Mine was leaking not too long ago. I have an old Hynautic system with copper lines and fittings. I took mine off and brought it to a hydraulic shop in town for a rebuild. A couple days later I picked it up, installed it, and ran new copper lines from the relief valve to the cylinder. No issues whatsoever since. Any hydraulic shop should be able to rebuild this for you easily. My cost for the rebuild was a little under $140.
You should try living in Canada, I just paid $465CDN.
I guess thats about $140US
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2016, 06:59 AM   #14
Guru
 
Lou_tribal's Avatar
 
City: Quebec
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Bleuvet
Vessel Model: Custom Built
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
You should try living in Canada, I just paid $465CDN.
I guess thats about $140US
The difference may be due to our taxes
Sometimes I am amazed by the price difference between US and Canada. I checked for an hydraulic cylinder... found one at 393$US while here in Canada the best price I found was around 600$CA+Tx and the guy asked me 120$CA for the shipping!

Regarding your story, I hope it won't be the same for me! Did not get a chance to look at that yet but it is on my plate to be done shortly. I will post some update when I will start this.

Thank you all.

Best Regards,
Lou_tribal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2016, 09:19 PM   #15
Guru
 
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Country: US
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 588
Hydraulic cylinders are rebuildable by anyone with a little mechanical ability. All marine hydraulic steering makers I know of offer rebuild kits. If assess is easy, you should be able to remove, replace seals, and reinstall in a few hours. You need to be clean. No particles of dirt, metal, sand or it will shorten the seal life. Seals normally last decades, so unless your going somewhere remote, you don't need to carry a spare cylinder.
In reality, any double acting cylinder will work. If it's a little bigger around, you have more wheel turns, smaller - fewer.
Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2016, 05:37 AM   #16
Guru
 
CaptTom's Avatar
 
City: Southern Maine
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cygnus
Vessel Model: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
If assess is easy, you should be able to remove, replace seals, and reinstall in a few hours
Agreed. This is getting way to complex. I took my upper helm pump to a shop for a rebuild, only because I'd never worked on hydraulics before and didn't want any surprises on the long transit bringing the boat home. Plus I had other irons in the fire at the time. Cost was under $150, closer to $100 if I recall correctly.

Removal and replacement was simple for anyone who can turn a wrench. No need to replace any copper hoses or fittings. Followed the bleed instructions, leaving out the steps for the lower components that weren't affected. No problems since (going on 4 years.)

There are lots of systems on an old boat. Replacing them all with totally new systems every time one component failed would be great. And sometimes you have to. See Boatpoker's post, above.

But then you're really just building a new boat, piece by piece. That would be far more time-consuming and expensive than just buying a new boat outright. So you have to draw the line somewhere.

Pop the pump out, fix it or have it fixed, and pop it back in. If everything works, move on to the next priority.
CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2016, 02:34 PM   #17
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,004
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
A cautionary tale ... 4 weeks ago I was hauled for bottom paint and rudder modification. two days later I was launched and while leaving the travel lift a hydraulic line broke and steering went south, I could turn port or starboard but only by continually turning the wheel, no big deal. Next day I lost an entire day getting a new hose made. day after that I put the new hose in and bled the system .... no change ! I bled the system three more times and checked everything for leaks, no leaks. Next I pulled the check valve and lost another day at a hydraulics shop getting it tested, no problem with the check valve. Back to the boat, re-installed the check valve and bled the system three more times .... no change. Next pulled the cylinder and lost another day getting it checked. All the seals were very bad, had it rebuilt and back to the boat. After bleeding the system three more times the damned steering still did not work. I have now gone through the same process with the helm pump and the autopilot pump and at this point have almost three weeks invested in this fiasco. I know everybody in the marine business for miles around and had two respected mechanic buddies with serious hydraulic experience look at it and they could not figure it out either.

I eventually gave up and ordered an entire new Seastar system which arrived today, two weeks after ordering ... we are now up to 5 weeks. This morning I tore out all the old copper lines and even though they had been bled with two gallons of new fluid, the black crap that came out when I cut them was amazing.

OK .. all the old crap is out and I can start running my new Seastar nylon lines (used them on other boats and was happy with them). I ordered two 50foot rolls and received one 50foot and one 25footer. So tomorrow morning I will call and complain and get the right length shipped to me. I guess i have to wait for the right length roll to show up before I have steering again .... Momma said there would be days like this. she never said anything about weeks.

PS. The new helm pump is not a direct replacement so I have to rebuild my entire bloody helm station to accomodate the new one ..... bloody hell, sometimes I hate boats.
An update ... this entire industry is incompetent. After five weeks I again have steering despite the help of "marine" experts in hydraulics. A virtual circus of parts with different threads ordered as a package, incorrect items shipped, Items not shipped when they promised, unanswered voice mails, sub-standard parts, proprietary parts that match nothing else on the market, "we don't have that part but we'll order it for you. Mechanics that don't show up when they said they would and don't understand why you're pissed at them !

I eventually removed the entire system and spent a day at a general hydraulic specialist store (non-marine) where they tested every component and supplied me with the correct materials and advice so if you are in Ontario I highly recommend Fluid Line in Burlington or Oakville, super people to deal with. It's always a treat to deal with a pro.

Anyone who has rebuilt an older boat will understand that there is no such thing as "standard" and that a broken hydraulic line can easily pyramid into a nightmare. Five weeks and $2500 to resolve the issue !

The last time I experienced something this this tough to deal with was a leaking shower tap that took 2 weeks and $2000.0 to repair.

The curious part is ..... there is simply no better way to live
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what I y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
As God is my witness, I thought turkey's could fly. Mr.C
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2016, 08:16 AM   #18
Guru
 
Lou_tribal's Avatar
 
City: Quebec
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Bleuvet
Vessel Model: Custom Built
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,783
This weekend I checked my cylinder, took some measurement and pics.
The cylinder housing diameter is approximately 1"3/4 and the shaft diameter is approximately 0.6" or 16mm.
The two following pics are about it. The sticker is barely readable, the only thing I can see on it is chevron.
Does anybody have any idea of the model of this thing?
I am ready to replace it by a seastar HC5314, BA150-7ATM but questionning myself if it would fit (I prefer to question myself before than after )
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20160717_163207.jpg
Views:	160
Size:	174.5 KB
ID:	54312   Click image for larger version

Name:	20160717_163222.jpg
Views:	116
Size:	113.0 KB
ID:	54313  
Lou_tribal is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2016, 11:37 PM   #19
TG
Senior Member
 
TG's Avatar
 
City: Oceanside, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Tera Grace
Vessel Model: Californian 42 LRC
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 152
That's the Wagner Logo barely visible so I'd guess it's a Wagner 700 series. Not sure about the vintage, It's not an N type but it doesn't look like the ones in the attached brochure either. Is the end cap missing?
Attached Files
File Type: pdf wa-brochure-type-700-steering.pdf (263.5 KB, 31 views)
TG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2016, 12:09 AM   #20
TG
Senior Member
 
TG's Avatar
 
City: Oceanside, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Tera Grace
Vessel Model: Californian 42 LRC
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 152
Take a look at the attached parts manual at this link.

http://www.helmsmansystems.com/downl...s%20Manual.pdf
__________________

TG is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cylinder, hydraulic, rebuild, steering

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012