Hydraulic steering rebuild

[Lou_tribal]

Hello,
I am a proud new owner of a 30' custom built trawler and I recently found out that the hydraulic steering cylinder is leaking a bit.
I would like to fix this by changing the current cylinder by a new one and see afterward if the current cylinder can be rebuilt.
Regarding this work to be done, as a newbie I have some questions:
1. Can replacing a cylinder be done while the boat is in the water, I guess so but I would like to be sure before taking everything apart and realizing I am doing something wrong.
2. I cannot determine what is the model of my current cylinder as the sticker on it as been damaged by the time. I know that the steering wheel is 6 turn end to end and I suspect the cylinder to be (or be very similar) to a teleflex HC5314 (seastar BA150-7ATM). What should I check to be sure it will fit before ordering the part?
3. Currently my cylinder is fitted using copper pipe. All the pipe for hydraulic fluid are copper and are fitted directly onto the cylinder. I would personally say that it is not the best as it is creating a solid rigid coupling and I would be enclined to better use flexible hose for the coupling between the copper pipe and the cylinder. What do you think about that?
4. Do you have any recommendation for me before I start this? I would say I am quite handy and I like to do things by myself so I am not scared to do it, I just want to do the right thing once and for all

Many thanks for your time and answers.

 

[Keysdisease]

1. Can replacing a cylinder be done while the boat is in the water, YES

2. I cannot determine what is the model of my current cylinder as the sticker on it as been damaged by the time. I know that the steering wheel is 6 turn end to end and I suspect the cylinder to be (or be very similar) to a teleflex HC5314 (seastar BA150-7ATM). What should I check to be sure it will fit before ordering the part?

You are probably right on with your guess. The part number means BA (balanced) 150 (1.5" Dia) 7 (7" travel). That size is what would have been recommended for a 30 ft boat, and for a custom boat the parts would have typically been bought through a Distributor and Teleflex / Sea Star is the most popular brand. When you get it out compare it and the helm to pictures of Sea Star likes and measure the cylinder diameter.

3. Currently my cylinder is fitted using copper pipe. All the pipe for hydraulic fluid are copper and are fitted directly onto the cylinder. I would personally say that it is not the best as it is creating a solid rigid coupling and I would be inclined to better use flexible hose for the coupling between the copper pipe and the cylinder. What do you think about that?

YES, what you want to do is current best practice, make a rigid termination a couple of feet from the ram and transition to flexible for the last couple of feet.

4. Do you have any recommendation for me before I start this?

What you want to do is very straight forward, and by replacing with new and rebuilding the leaking ram for a back up you make it even simpler.

Good luck and congrats on the new boat

Hello,
I am a proud new owner of a 30' custom built trawler and I recently found out that the hydraulic steering cylinder is leaking a bit.
I would like to fix this by changing the current cylinder by a new one and see afterward if the current cylinder can be rebuilt.
Regarding this work to be done, as a newbie I have some questions:
1. Can replacing a cylinder be done while the boat is in the water, I guess so but I would like to be sure before taking everything apart and realizing I am doing something wrong.
2. I cannot determine what is the model of my current cylinder as the sticker on it as been damaged by the time. I know that the steering wheel is 6 turn end to end and I suspect the cylinder to be (or be very similar) to a teleflex HC5314 (seastar BA150-7ATM). What should I check to be sure it will fit before ordering the part?
3. Currently my cylinder is fitted using copper pipe. All the pipe for hydraulic fluid are copper and are fitted directly onto the cylinder. I would personally say that it is not the best as it is creating a solid rigid coupling and I would be enclined to better use flexible hose for the coupling between the copper pipe and the cylinder. What do you think about that?
4. Do you have any recommendation for me before I start this? I would say I am quite handy and I like to do things by myself so I am not scared to do it, I just want to do the right thing once and for all

Many thanks for your time and answers.

 

[obthomas]

First, you need flexible connections to the cylinder. Second, these cylinders are not rocket science. They use standard seals that leak in time. If you can measure you can order/buy the necessary seals. It's easy. I would not buy a new cylinder unless yours is damaged or pitted or for some reason new seals will not solve all the problems. Good luck.

 

[Nomad Willy]

About the only thing you can do is replace the cylinder seals and have the pump serviced. If you extend the shaft all the way the whole thing can be checked out. I'd take them out and take or send them to a facility that does that. Or send them to Harbor Marine in Everett WA where I had my cylinder done.
The hoses should be as most are always in the dark copper tubes should be checked for corrosion but problems are unlikly w them too.

 

[meridian]

A good hydraulic shop could turn this around in 24 hours. They rebuild these for trucks and heavy equipment.


Sent from my iPhone using Trawler Forum

 

[Nomad Willy]

meridian,
You suppose these seals are not marine items but everyday industrial parts? I got my non-marine hose at an industrial tractor store. Large dia and orange but has been on the boat for 10years. But yes the seals are probably quite common.

 

[Lou_tribal]

I guess that before taking everything apart it will be easier to set the rudder in a specific position, let say full starboard, so when putting the new one in place I can set it in the same position right away. Then I will need to bleed the line and if I did it right I should be in business

Do you know if the fittings on the cylinder are standard format or proprietary from the manufacturer? In other words, can I use any hydraulic hose or do they make this their own way to force you to buy their own fitting/adapter/hose?

Many thanks to all your answers I am learning every minute I spend on this forum!

 

[jpanara]

I used these folks, an authorized service center recommended by Teleflex. You can send them your cylinder and they will rebuild it for you. If unrepairable (and unlikely based on your description), they sell new and refurbished units. I would not buy another cylinder unless needed. No connection, just satisfied customer. Agree with comments about a flexible hydraulic hose between copper tube and cylinder.

FLUID TECHNOLOGIES
3477 Lakeshore Blvd.
Jacksonville, FL 32210

Phone: 904-384-9659
Web:www.hydraulicmarinerepair.com
Services:
All products including SeaStar, BayStar, Capilano & Hynautic steering.

 

[Ted]

Rig it with standard fittings, put a tee at each port.
Run line between the tees with a valve in it.
With valve closed turn wheel until steering is hard over.
Open the valve and turn the wheel until air stops coming out.
Close valve and turn wheel in opposite direction until hard over.
Open valve and turn wheel until no more air coming out.
Close valve and test response, run with valve closed.
This should be most of the bleeding if not all.

Ted

 

[fireant4040]

Mine was leaking not too long ago. I have an old Hynautic system with copper lines and fittings. I took mine off and brought it to a hydraulic shop in town for a rebuild. A couple days later I picked it up, installed it, and ran new copper lines from the relief valve to the cylinder. No issues whatsoever since. Any hydraulic shop should be able to rebuild this for you easily. My cost for the rebuild was a little under $140.

 

[C lectric]

As for bleeding air , work out as much air as possible while doing the typical wheel dance back and forth dockside.

However final bleed may require a boat run with a mild roll and pitch. Often it seems as some bubbles are reluctant to move. The piping may be closer to level than is ideal so air can get stuck. The pitch and roll will allow those pockets to really move. Combine that with the normal wheel dance while running and that likely will be the end of any remaining air in the system.

When done just top up the oil level and check once in a while.

 

[boatpoker]

A cautionary tale ... 4 weeks ago I was hauled for bottom paint and rudder modification. two days later I was launched and while leaving the travel lift a hydraulic line broke and steering went south, I could turn port or starboard but only by continually turning the wheel, no big deal. Next day I lost an entire day getting a new hose made. day after that I put the new hose in and bled the system .... no change ! I bled the system three more times and checked everything for leaks, no leaks. Next I pulled the check valve and lost another day at a hydraulics shop getting it tested, no problem with the check valve. Back to the boat, re-installed the check valve and bled the system three more times .... no change. Next pulled the cylinder and lost another day getting it checked. All the seals were very bad, had it rebuilt and back to the boat. After bleeding the system three more times the damned steering still did not work. I have now gone through the same process with the helm pump and the autopilot pump and at this point have almost three weeks invested in this fiasco. I know everybody in the marine business for miles around and had two respected mechanic buddies with serious hydraulic experience look at it and they could not figure it out either.

I eventually gave up and ordered an entire new Seastar system which arrived today, two weeks after ordering ... we are now up to 5 weeks. This morning I tore out all the old copper lines and even though they had been bled with two gallons of new fluid, the black crap that came out when I cut them was amazing.

OK .. all the old crap is out and I can start running my new Seastar nylon lines (used them on other boats and was happy with them). I ordered two 50foot rolls and received one 50foot and one 25footer. So tomorrow morning I will call and complain and get the right length shipped to me. I guess i have to wait for the right length roll to show up before I have steering again .... Momma said there would be days like this. she never said anything about weeks.

PS. The new helm pump is not a direct replacement so I have to rebuild my entire bloody helm station to accomodate the new one ..... bloody hell, sometimes I hate boats.

 

[boatpoker]

Mine was leaking not too long ago. I have an old Hynautic system with copper lines and fittings. I took mine off and brought it to a hydraulic shop in town for a rebuild. A couple days later I picked it up, installed it, and ran new copper lines from the relief valve to the cylinder. No issues whatsoever since. Any hydraulic shop should be able to rebuild this for you easily. My cost for the rebuild was a little under $140.

You should try living in Canada, I just paid $465CDN.
I guess thats about $140US

 

[Lou_tribal]

You should try living in Canada, I just paid $465CDN.
I guess thats about $140US

The difference may be due to our taxes
Sometimes I am amazed by the price difference between US and Canada. I checked for an hydraulic cylinder... found one at 393$US while here in Canada the best price I found was around 600$CA+Tx and the guy asked me 120$CA for the shipping!

Regarding your story, I hope it won't be the same for me! Did not get a chance to look at that yet but it is on my plate to be done shortly. I will post some update when I will start this.

Thank you all.

Best Regards,

 

[Lepke]

Hydraulic cylinders are rebuildable by anyone with a little mechanical ability. All marine hydraulic steering makers I know of offer rebuild kits. If assess is easy, you should be able to remove, replace seals, and reinstall in a few hours. You need to be clean. No particles of dirt, metal, sand or it will shorten the seal life. Seals normally last decades, so unless your going somewhere remote, you don't need to carry a spare cylinder.
In reality, any double acting cylinder will work. If it's a little bigger around, you have more wheel turns, smaller - fewer.

 

[CaptTom]

If assess is easy, you should be able to remove, replace seals, and reinstall in a few hours

Agreed. This is getting way to complex. I took my upper helm pump to a shop for a rebuild, only because I'd never worked on hydraulics before and didn't want any surprises on the long transit bringing the boat home. Plus I had other irons in the fire at the time. Cost was under $150, closer to $100 if I recall correctly.

Removal and replacement was simple for anyone who can turn a wrench. No need to replace any copper hoses or fittings. Followed the bleed instructions, leaving out the steps for the lower components that weren't affected. No problems since (going on 4 years.)

There are lots of systems on an old boat. Replacing them all with totally new systems every time one component failed would be great. And sometimes you have to. See Boatpoker's post, above.

But then you're really just building a new boat, piece by piece. That would be far more time-consuming and expensive than just buying a new boat outright. So you have to draw the line somewhere.

Pop the pump out, fix it or have it fixed, and pop it back in. If everything works, move on to the next priority.

 

[boatpoker]

A cautionary tale ... 4 weeks ago I was hauled for bottom paint and rudder modification. two days later I was launched and while leaving the travel lift a hydraulic line broke and steering went south, I could turn port or starboard but only by continually turning the wheel, no big deal. Next day I lost an entire day getting a new hose made. day after that I put the new hose in and bled the system .... no change ! I bled the system three more times and checked everything for leaks, no leaks. Next I pulled the check valve and lost another day at a hydraulics shop getting it tested, no problem with the check valve. Back to the boat, re-installed the check valve and bled the system three more times .... no change. Next pulled the cylinder and lost another day getting it checked. All the seals were very bad, had it rebuilt and back to the boat. After bleeding the system three more times the damned steering still did not work. I have now gone through the same process with the helm pump and the autopilot pump and at this point have almost three weeks invested in this fiasco. I know everybody in the marine business for miles around and had two respected mechanic buddies with serious hydraulic experience look at it and they could not figure it out either.

I eventually gave up and ordered an entire new Seastar system which arrived today, two weeks after ordering ... we are now up to 5 weeks. This morning I tore out all the old copper lines and even though they had been bled with two gallons of new fluid, the black crap that came out when I cut them was amazing.

OK .. all the old crap is out and I can start running my new Seastar nylon lines (used them on other boats and was happy with them). I ordered two 50foot rolls and received one 50foot and one 25footer. So tomorrow morning I will call and complain and get the right length shipped to me. I guess i have to wait for the right length roll to show up before I have steering again .... Momma said there would be days like this. she never said anything about weeks.

PS. The new helm pump is not a direct replacement so I have to rebuild my entire bloody helm station to accomodate the new one ..... bloody hell, sometimes I hate boats.

An update ... this entire industry is incompetent. After five weeks I again have steering despite the help of "marine" experts in hydraulics. A virtual circus of parts with different threads ordered as a package, incorrect items shipped, Items not shipped when they promised, unanswered voice mails, sub-standard parts, proprietary parts that match nothing else on the market, "we don't have that part but we'll order it for you. Mechanics that don't show up when they said they would and don't understand why you're pissed at them !

I eventually removed the entire system and spent a day at a general hydraulic specialist store (non-marine) where they tested every component and supplied me with the correct materials and advice so if you are in Ontario I highly recommend Fluid Line in Burlington or Oakville, super people to deal with. It's always a treat to deal with a pro.

Anyone who has rebuilt an older boat will understand that there is no such thing as "standard" and that a broken hydraulic line can easily pyramid into a nightmare. Five weeks and $2500 to resolve the issue !

The last time I experienced something this this tough to deal with was a leaking shower tap that took 2 weeks and $2000.0 to repair.

The curious part is ..... there is simply no better way to live

 

[Lou_tribal]

This weekend I checked my cylinder, took some measurement and pics.
The cylinder housing diameter is approximately 1"3/4 and the shaft diameter is approximately 0.6" or 16mm.
The two following pics are about it. The sticker is barely readable, the only thing I can see on it is chevron.
Does anybody have any idea of the model of this thing?
I am ready to replace it by a seastar HC5314, BA150-7ATM but questionning myself if it would fit (I prefer to question myself before than after )

 

[TG]

That's the Wagner Logo barely visible so I'd guess it's a Wagner 700 series. Not sure about the vintage, It's not an N type but it doesn't look like the ones in the attached brochure either. Is the end cap missing?

 

[TG]

Take a look at the attached parts manual at this link.

http://www.helmsmansystems.com/downloads/Parts Manual.pdf

 

[Lou_tribal]

Thank you very much TG this is valuable information for me. I checked some measurement of the Wagner 700 and that matches what I got. Looks like it is also the same as a seastar HC5314, BA150-7ATM so I should be ok to switch from one to the other.

 

[Lou_tribal]

I read on another forum about boat diesel engines that aluminium cylinders are not a good idea and that it is better to have a brass cylinder.
I am questionning myself about getting a teleflex hc5314 which is an aluminium cylinder or a 5319 which is a brass cylinder.
Considering that the brass one is almost twice the price of the aluminium one, does it worth the price?
Any advice on that?

Thank you!

 

[Lou_tribal]

yesterday I just got my cylinder rebuilt with new gasket and tested at 700 psi. What is funny is that I expected the seals to be rings but there were not. There were kind of U shape seal and one of them had its leap reversed so the leak. In any case, if I get a leak again, I will do the job by myself as it is really easy. Even the guy at the hydraulic shop told me that t is easy to open and replace the seals and that when done by a shop it is costly.

Anyway this is a one more thing to think about and one less mess, just hope I will not think about it anymore this year.

Note: When I talked to the hydraulic mechanic about the price of seastar hydraulic flid he was just smiling and told me to get standard hydraulic fluid from any source or even ATF but ATf will be more pricey than standard hydraulic fluid.

L.

 

[C lectric]

U cups are a very common type of seal. Yes, the orientation is very important.

The U must face the pressure as the pressure forces the U lips to spread and press harder against the cylinder parts, improving the seal.

They are better with moving parts than O rings which are also used as done in my steer cylinder. But all seals wear and harden over the years so they lose the ability to effect a seal so leak.

Brass would be better than aluminum BUT keep in mind what is not so suitable for an engine has little bearing on your cylinder. Also most engines, not all, are a type of cast iron, not brass. An engine cylinder is high speed, hot and has absolutely minimal lubrication.. Yet, aluminum pistons survive for years and for hundreds of thousands of miles.

NO so with your cylinder which is slow speed, usually cold but at least cool and is flooded with lubricant.

But of course $$ count so for a lot of steering system cylinders they use aluminum.

I personally think the brass is a better material for this but if my system had come with an alum. cylinder I would not change it untill it croaked actually scoring the bore.

 

[Lou_tribal]

U cups are a very common type of seal. Yes, the orientation is very important.

The U must face the pressure as the pressure forces the U lips to spread and press harder against the cylinder parts, improving the seal.

They are better with moving parts than O rings which are also used as done in my steer cylinder. But all seals wear and harden over the years so they lose the ability to effect a seal so leak.

Brass would be better than aluminum BUT keep in mind what is not so suitable for an engine has little bearing on your cylinder. Also most engines, not all, are a type of cast iron, not brass. An engine cylinder is high speed, hot and has absolutely minimal lubrication.. Yet, aluminum pistons survive for years and for hundreds of thousands of miles.

NO so with your cylinder which is slow speed, usually cold but at least cool and is flooded with lubricant.

But of course $$ count so for a lot of steering system cylinders they use aluminum.

I personally think the brass is a better material for this but if my system had come with an alum. cylinder I would not change it untill it croaked actually scoring the bore.

Indeed when I check for a replacement in case my cylinder would not be serviceable I saw one in alu and same model in brass. Price was twice as much for brass than for alu. The day this one will die I will replace it with the most durable so certainly brass but I just hope the current one will last 20 more years

L.

 

[FF]

Considering that the brass one is almost twice the price of the aluminium one, does it worth the price?

RU Selling the boat , or keeping the boat?

 

[Lou_tribal]

Considering that the brass one is almost twice the price of the aluminium one, does it worth the price?

RU Selling the boat , or keeping the boat?

Not selling for sure, at least not for the next 15 years except if a drama occurs.

L.

 

[Lou_tribal]

OK my rudder cylinder is back in place so now I need to bleed the lines and everything should be back to duty.
I know the process for bleeding two helm install however I have a question.

The two hydraulic lines are connected directly onto the cylinder fittings, that is to say that there is no bleeding valve on the cylinder. I try to avoid a mess of hydraulic oil in my freshly cleaned, freshly painted bilge so I planned to process the same way used to bleed car breaking lines without a mess, that is to say that I plan to put the two line ends into a gallon half full of hydraulic fluid, so the lines can push oil in the gallon or suck oil from he gallon but will never suck in any air nor leak oil everywhere. Than when the lines are full of hydraulic oil I will reconnect the lines to the cylinder than do the final bleeding part of the cylinder by loosing one side, pump than tightening it and do the same on the other side, until no air bubble will show anymore.

Does this sound a plan? Any hint, advise?

Any info or advice will be very welcome!

Thank you!

L.

 

[Northern Spy]

Good time to put a ram bypass valve in the system. Allows a faster fill and bleed, and can hook up an emergency tiller if your design is conducive.

 

[Northern Spy]

You could also connect your hoses to the ram using a T and put a bleeder valve on the other end of the T.