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Old 07-19-2016, 04:37 AM   #21
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Thank you very much TG this is valuable information for me. I checked some measurement of the Wagner 700 and that matches what I got. Looks like it is also the same as a seastar HC5314, BA150-7ATM so I should be ok to switch from one to the other.
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Old 07-27-2016, 07:48 PM   #22
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I read on another forum about boat diesel engines that aluminium cylinders are not a good idea and that it is better to have a brass cylinder.
I am questionning myself about getting a teleflex hc5314 which is an aluminium cylinder or a 5319 which is a brass cylinder.
Considering that the brass one is almost twice the price of the aluminium one, does it worth the price?
Any advice on that?

Thank you!
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:17 PM   #23
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yesterday I just got my cylinder rebuilt with new gasket and tested at 700 psi. What is funny is that I expected the seals to be rings but there were not. There were kind of U shape seal and one of them had its leap reversed so the leak. In any case, if I get a leak again, I will do the job by myself as it is really easy. Even the guy at the hydraulic shop told me that t is easy to open and replace the seals and that when done by a shop it is costly.

Anyway this is a one more thing to think about and one less mess, just hope I will not think about it anymore this year.

Note: When I talked to the hydraulic mechanic about the price of seastar hydraulic flid he was just smiling and told me to get standard hydraulic fluid from any source or even ATF but ATf will be more pricey than standard hydraulic fluid.

L.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:14 PM   #24
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U cups are a very common type of seal. Yes, the orientation is very important.

The U must face the pressure as the pressure forces the U lips to spread and press harder against the cylinder parts, improving the seal.

They are better with moving parts than O rings which are also used as done in my steer cylinder. But all seals wear and harden over the years so they lose the ability to effect a seal so leak.

Brass would be better than aluminum BUT keep in mind what is not so suitable for an engine has little bearing on your cylinder. Also most engines, not all, are a type of cast iron, not brass. An engine cylinder is high speed, hot and has absolutely minimal lubrication.. Yet, aluminum pistons survive for years and for hundreds of thousands of miles.

NO so with your cylinder which is slow speed, usually cold but at least cool and is flooded with lubricant.

But of course $$ count so for a lot of steering system cylinders they use aluminum.

I personally think the brass is a better material for this but if my system had come with an alum. cylinder I would not change it untill it croaked actually scoring the bore.
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Old 05-05-2017, 05:32 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C lectric View Post
U cups are a very common type of seal. Yes, the orientation is very important.

The U must face the pressure as the pressure forces the U lips to spread and press harder against the cylinder parts, improving the seal.

They are better with moving parts than O rings which are also used as done in my steer cylinder. But all seals wear and harden over the years so they lose the ability to effect a seal so leak.

Brass would be better than aluminum BUT keep in mind what is not so suitable for an engine has little bearing on your cylinder. Also most engines, not all, are a type of cast iron, not brass. An engine cylinder is high speed, hot and has absolutely minimal lubrication.. Yet, aluminum pistons survive for years and for hundreds of thousands of miles.

NO so with your cylinder which is slow speed, usually cold but at least cool and is flooded with lubricant.

But of course $$ count so for a lot of steering system cylinders they use aluminum.

I personally think the brass is a better material for this but if my system had come with an alum. cylinder I would not change it untill it croaked actually scoring the bore.
Indeed when I check for a replacement in case my cylinder would not be serviceable I saw one in alu and same model in brass. Price was twice as much for brass than for alu. The day this one will die I will replace it with the most durable so certainly brass but I just hope the current one will last 20 more years

L.
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Old 05-06-2017, 05:56 AM   #26
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Considering that the brass one is almost twice the price of the aluminium one, does it worth the price?

RU Selling the boat , or keeping the boat?
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Old 05-06-2017, 07:49 AM   #27
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Considering that the brass one is almost twice the price of the aluminium one, does it worth the price?

RU Selling the boat , or keeping the boat?
Not selling for sure, at least not for the next 15 years except if a drama occurs.

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Old 05-11-2017, 02:37 PM   #28
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OK my rudder cylinder is back in place so now I need to bleed the lines and everything should be back to duty.
I know the process for bleeding two helm install however I have a question.

The two hydraulic lines are connected directly onto the cylinder fittings, that is to say that there is no bleeding valve on the cylinder. I try to avoid a mess of hydraulic oil in my freshly cleaned, freshly painted bilge so I planned to process the same way used to bleed car breaking lines without a mess, that is to say that I plan to put the two line ends into a gallon half full of hydraulic fluid, so the lines can push oil in the gallon or suck oil from he gallon but will never suck in any air nor leak oil everywhere. Than when the lines are full of hydraulic oil I will reconnect the lines to the cylinder than do the final bleeding part of the cylinder by loosing one side, pump than tightening it and do the same on the other side, until no air bubble will show anymore.

Does this sound a plan? Any hint, advise?

Any info or advice will be very welcome!

Thank you!

L.
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Old 05-11-2017, 02:45 PM   #29
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Good time to put a ram bypass valve in the system. Allows a faster fill and bleed, and can hook up an emergency tiller if your design is conducive.
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Old 05-11-2017, 03:08 PM   #30
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You could also connect your hoses to the ram using a T and put a bleeder valve on the other end of the T.
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Old 05-11-2017, 03:11 PM   #31
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Or bestest of all, put in the bypass line and valve and put a T with a bleeder in the bypass line. Fill the unit, open the bypass valve, crack the bleeder, and turn the wheel back and forth to get the air out.
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Old 05-11-2017, 04:22 PM   #32
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I just bled my system last weekend as part of my spring commissioning chores. This chore is not normally required but caused by my own stupidity - another story. My system has the purge valves which are opened by loosening a couple screws on a junction and bleeders on the slave cylinder, the one at the back of the boat that turns the rudders. I'm surprised your slave cylinder doesn't have bleed screws, one at each end. Look again.

With 35psi on the system and purge valves open, turning the helms the required number of turns caused no fluid to leave the system. Opening the bleeders on the slave cylinder caused a quick 'pfft' of air followed by a slow ooze of fluid that was easily stopped by tightening the bleed screw. I had an oil absorbing towel ready but a shop paper towel would have done the trick. No muss, no fuss. It takes time but was surprisingly easy.

Good luck!
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Old 05-11-2017, 04:36 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregBrannon View Post
I just bled my system last weekend as part of my spring commissioning chores. This chore is not normally required but caused by my own stupidity - another story. My system has the purge valves which are opened by loosening a couple screws on a junction and bleeders on the slave cylinder, the one at the back of the boat that turns the rudders. I'm surprised your slave cylinder doesn't have bleed screws, one at each end. Look again.

With 35psi on the system and purge valves open, turning the helms the required number of turns caused no fluid to leave the system. Opening the bleeders on the slave cylinder caused a quick 'pfft' of air followed by a slow ooze of fluid that was easily stopped by tightening the bleed screw. I had an oil absorbing towel ready but a shop paper towel would have done the trick. No muss, no fuss. It takes time but was surprisingly easy.

Good luck!
I swear I have no bleed valve your honor Seriously I posted a picture in post 18 of this thread and this is how it was mounted, no bleed screw. However it would be a very nice addition I totally agree ! Though I will need to find them nearby or order them on the web. I will take a look around.

L.
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Old 05-11-2017, 04:48 PM   #34
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Yep, sorry I didn't see that picture before posting. I read the first 10 posts or so and then skipped to the punchline. My slave cylinder looks very different, old school with large square pieces at each end of the cylinder. There's a bleed screw in the top of each of the square pieces. Cracking your hose fitting just enough to let the air out should be equivalent to my bleed screws. Having an alternative would be nice, but you shouldn't be doing this often.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:28 PM   #35
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I know several people here have told you that you should have connecting hoses between your copper lines and your cylinder. Not necessarily, the cylinder moves very little in operation, hoses are not necessary. One port maybe 1/2" and the other maybe 1". Connecting hoses are subject to their own set of problems. Some responders have mentioned blown hoses in their posts here. If the copper lines are properly installed, I see no reason to add more complication and fittings to the system. My lobsterboat's Wagner system was installed in 1972 with copper lines going directly to the cylinder, and is still going strong.
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Old 06-16-2017, 07:19 PM   #36
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Anyone recognize this cylinder? It looks like the old Wagner series except the rod passes through the back of it. I'd like to replace or it find a different option to replace that is a somewhat straightforward swap before this one fails. No leaks, but the corrosion does not leave me feeling warm and fuzzy..
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:24 PM   #37
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Why not take it out, clean it, hit it with phosphoric acid to nuetralise/convert the rust and then paint with epoxy enamel paint like killrust?

I am about to do mine in the next few days.
Did the seals a few mths back but didn't have the time to paint then.
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:46 PM   #38
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Hydraulic steering fluid

I would not use ATF if you are in a cold climate. I would instead use a temperature stabilized aviation hydraulic oil mil. spec. 5606A.
ATF will make your steering "stiff" in cold weather.
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Old 06-16-2017, 11:32 PM   #39
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My Wagner steering is about 45 years old. I rebuilt my cylinder and it's simple. If you buy a kit, instructions come included.
Old cylinder: In steering systems, the cylinder is almost always made by the helm pump manufacturer.
On the US West Coast this is the dealer:

Hamilton Jet USA.
14680 NE N Woodinville Way
Suite 100
Woodinville, WA 98072
Tel: 425-527-3000
Fax: 425-527-9188
E-mail: marketing@hamiltonjet.com
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File Type: pdf wa-brochure-filling-700-series-cylinders.pdf (295.2 KB, 4 views)
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Old 06-17-2017, 05:44 PM   #40
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I got the cylinder seals changed and the guy at the shop told me to do it myself next time (at least he is honest has he has better to do then doing my small tiny cylinder lol). He told me it is very simple and indeed it is, unscrew, tear off, replace the seal, put back in place, done. Hopefully next time will not come too soon.
On another note I took the opportunity to change the 2 compression fittings as they were marked (maybe tight too much), from then no leak at all and the steering feels better than ever.

L.
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