Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-28-2016, 10:50 PM   #1
FOG
Senior Member
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: DreamQuest
Vessel Model: Prairie 36
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 215
Holding Tank with Lectra/San

My Prairie 36 has 2 toilets with each one connected to a Lecrta/San Marine Sanitation Device (MSD). Each MSD output hose is connected to a seacock/thru hole then overboard. I'm in a No Discharge Zone so I can't use the toilets.

So I'm planning to install a holding tank. My initial idea was to go from each of the MSDs to a "Y" valve with one leg going overboard as they are now and the other leg into the holding tank. The holding tank output would go to another "Y" valve with one leg going to a macerator and then overboard and the other leg going to a deck pump out.

Then I remembered how much I dislike "Y" valves in a sewage system. Especially when they fail. So I have decided not to use any "Y" valves and go from the MSDs directly to the holding tank with 2 separate outputs from the tank. One output of the tank to the macerator and the other to the deck pump out.

I wanted to keep the MSDs because the sewage sanitation starts just a couple of feet from each toilet and then goes into the holding tank already sanitized. But now I'm not sure if I want to keep the MSDs onboard.

Is the additional power consumption, maintenance, etc. of the MSDs worth their benefit? I like the idea of being able to dump the holding tank without having to go 3 miles out or finding a pump out station.

And the Admiral thinks the thought of carrying around sanitized waste verses raw sewage, is better. But I'm not sure if the benefits outweigh some of the other issues. Anyone been through this exercise? What are your thoughts?
__________________
Advertisement

FOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 11:06 PM   #2
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 2,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOG View Post
My Prairie 36 has 2 toilets with each one connected to a Lecrta/San Marine Sanitation Device (MSD). Each MSD output hose is connected to a seacock/thru hole then overboard. I'm in a No Discharge Zone so I can't use the toilets.



So I'm planning to install a holding tank. My initial idea was to go from each of the MSDs to a "Y" valve with one leg going overboard as they are now and the other leg into the holding tank. The holding tank output would go to another "Y" valve with one leg going to a macerator and then overboard and the other leg going to a deck pump out.



Then I remembered how much I dislike "Y" valves in a sewage system. Especially when they fail. So I have decided not to use any "Y" valves and go from the MSDs directly to the holding tank with 2 separate outputs from the tank. One output of the tank to the macerator and the other to the deck pump out.



I wanted to keep the MSDs because the sewage sanitation starts just a couple of feet from each toilet and then goes into the holding tank already sanitized. But now I'm not sure if I want to keep the MSDs onboard.



Is the additional power consumption, maintenance, etc. of the MSDs worth their benefit? I like the idea of being able to dump the holding tank without having to go 3 miles out or finding a pump out station.



And the Admiral thinks the thought of carrying around sanitized waste verses raw sewage, is better. But I'm not sure if the benefits outweigh some of the other issues. Anyone been through this exercise? What are your thoughts?

You are in a no discharge area now, but will your normal cruising grounds allow the MSD? For a while I was considering adding a Lectrosan to my sailboat. At the time Peggy helped explain some of the best ways to do it. My memory sucks but I believe that she recommended the use of a Y valve between the head and MSD which would direct the waste to either the MSD or the holding tank.

The problem that I see with directing the treated waste to the holding tank is that while the waste would be treated, it wouldn't be sterile. If the waste sat in the holding tank you would still need to pump out the holding tank rather than discharge it (inside the 3 mile limit). Beyond the regulatory compliance issue, I am not sure that the Lectrosan would function properly when not in a NDZ if its output goes to the holding tank rather than overboard.

Hopefully Peggy will jump in and set me straight.
__________________

__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 11:24 PM   #3
Veteran Member
 
City: Baltimore, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Starshine
Vessel Model: 1989 Bayliner 3288
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 84
It is not legal to discharge treated waste overboard that that has been stored. You can store it then treat it just prior to discharging overboard. Raritan sells the HNT, hold and treat, control that allows you to use your current holding tank and MSD.
johnrupp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 11:30 PM   #4
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,577
With twp heads... I recommend one with large holding tank and low flush toilet. Other having lectra/san. Best of both worlds... I believe!

Peggy where are you?!?!
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 11:34 PM   #5
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 2,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
With twp heads... I recommend one with large holding tank and low flush toilet. Other having lectra/san. Best of both worlds.

But he already has two MSDs and probably doesn't want to trash one.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2016, 11:51 PM   #6
Guru
 
HeadMistress's Avatar


 
City: AR
Country: USA
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 906
Your memory is pretty good, Dave.

There is no real advantage to sending treated waste to a holding tank, 'cuz once it goes anywhere from the treatment device except directly overboard it's no longer treated waste. Which makes it just as illegal to dump a tank full of waste that's been through a treatment device as it is to dump a tank full of waste straight from the toilet. Reason: The L/S doesn't render it sterile, it macerates to the required "no visible solids" and reduces the bacteria count to < 10/100 milliliter. Only one bacterium has to survive in the tank to multiply into a zillion. The tank requires the same amount of maintenance and odor management whether the waste going into it has been treated or not. So in the interest of simplicity, I'd put the y-valve ahead of the L/S to offer a choice of flushing into the tank or overboard through the L/S.

Then there's the matter of where to put the tank...there's a limit to how far most toilets can move bowl contents in the amount of time most people will spend flushing it. So depending on how far apart the toilets are, a single tank for both may not be a good plan. You might consider only adding a tank to the toilet that will be used the most while in NDZ waters and leave the other toilet set up as it is.

Yes, the L/S is definitely worth the power consumption (on average < 20 AH/day for a liveaboard couple) and minimal amount of maintenance required...a LOT less than a tank!

If you'd like some one-on-one help sorting out all the details, give me shout via PM .

Peggie
http://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-Bo...dp/1892399784/
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
__________________
2016 Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since '87.
Author "The NEW Get Rid of Boat Odors"
HeadMistress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 12:04 AM   #7
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays View Post
But he already has two MSDs and probably doesn't want to trash one.
Replacement parts... 4 sale on CL... or??
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 11:40 AM   #8
FOG
Senior Member
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: DreamQuest
Vessel Model: Prairie 36
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 215
Oh crap! It appears that using "Y" valves is going to give me the best functionality.

Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions. In my reading research I must have missed the part about that it's illegal to store treated waste in a holding tank and then at a later date dump it overboard as though it is still treated waste.

Back to the drawing board to figure out a NEW plan for our use. Fortunately still only a paper project at this point.

Peggy, thanks for the offer. Once I diagram the best installation locations for everything, you may see a PM from me.
FOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 01:10 PM   #9
Guru
 
HeadMistress's Avatar


 
City: AR
Country: USA
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 906
It might be worthwhile for us to chat before you do all the work to diagram what you consider the best locations, 'cuz there are factors like distance from toilets and tank venting you may not know you need to consider.

Peggie
http://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-Bo...dp/1892399784/
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
__________________
2016 Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since '87.
Author "The NEW Get Rid of Boat Odors"
HeadMistress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 03:32 PM   #10
FOG
Senior Member
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: DreamQuest
Vessel Model: Prairie 36
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadMistress View Post
It might be worthwhile for us to chat before you do all the work to diagram what you consider the best locations, 'cuz there are factors like distance from toilets and tank venting you may not know you need to consider.

Peggie
http://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-Bo...dp/1892399784/
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
OK. I'll get some preliminary measurements before I send you a PM. Thanks.
FOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 06:35 AM   #11
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,908
A more modern method is to use two discharge outlets in the holding tank..

One hooked direct to the deck fitting the other to the lectra san or direct to overboard discharge.

AS almost all the poop pump problems I have had come from the unit drying out and paper holding the suction valve open just a tiny bit , I would have a tank built with a bottom drain hookup .

A Dupree valve would allow the tank to be closed and the pump removed if required.

Manual Valve and Parts - Dupree Products

https://www.dupreeproducts.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=3


Requires disassembly and reuse of valve gate,end cap, o-rings, spring, ... The Twis-Loc termination system provides a truly durable sewer hose connection.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2016, 09:04 AM   #12
FOG
Senior Member
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: DreamQuest
Vessel Model: Prairie 36
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
A more modern method is to use two discharge outlets in the holding tank..

One hooked direct to the deck fitting the other to the lectra san or direct to overboard discharge.

AS almost all the poop pump problems I have had come from the unit drying out and paper holding the suction valve open just a tiny bit , I would have a tank built with a bottom drain hookup .

A Dupree valve would allow the tank to be closed and the pump removed if required.

Manual Valve and Parts - Dupree Products

https://www.dupreeproducts.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=3


Requires disassembly and reuse of valve gate,end cap, o-rings, spring, ... The Twis-Loc termination system provides a truly durable sewer hose connection.
Years ago I installed a Ronco holding tank on my sail boat that previously had a stinky bladder. I followed their installation instructions & diagram and it worked great.

However, this time I'm planning to use 2 discharge outlets from the tank as you have suggested if it is physically possible.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	install2.gif
Views:	35
Size:	26.3 KB
ID:	56889  
FOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2016, 09:22 AM   #13
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,908
Overboard discharge is only allowed miles out at sea , so why is the discharge sea cock underwater?
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2016, 09:45 AM   #14
FOG
Senior Member
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: DreamQuest
Vessel Model: Prairie 36
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
Overboard discharge is only allowed miles out at sea , so why is the discharge sea cock underwater?
I don't know the answer. It's a Ronco diagram, but I have had other boats with the discharge sea cock underwater installed by the factory. Maybe it's to keep the smell down during discharge
FOG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2016, 10:45 AM   #15
Senior Member
 
City: Ashland
Country: United States
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 167
Am I missing something??? I read that treated waste is prohibited from being discharged in no discharge zones. So why is there any interest at all to install an expensive system to treat waste?

OK........so you say it is best to treat waste no matter where it is discharged. Well here in Massachusetts the radical environmentalists have succeeded to get just about all water declared no discharge areas including Buzzard's Bay, Vineyard Sound, Nantucket Sound. These actions force the so call 3 mile to begin almost 15-20 miles off the mainland.

Personally I firmly believe that holding tanks can result in greater harm than boats without them. Consider a potty macerated dump of 2 quarts or so vs 40 gallons of the same. If environmentalists had their way they would require diapers on poop dumping seals and gulls. CRAZY!
foggysail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2016, 11:29 AM   #16
Veteran Member
 
garrobito's Avatar
 
City: Oakland
Country: US
Vessel Name: Arcangel
Vessel Model: Buewater 40
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 68
let's go for compost type head!!
garrobito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2016, 02:13 PM   #17
Guru
 
HeadMistress's Avatar


 
City: AR
Country: USA
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 906
Am I missing something??? I read that treated waste is prohibited from being discharged in no discharge zones. So why is there any interest at all to install an expensive system to treat waste?

Because although there are a few places where well-intentioned but misguided "no discharge" zeal have triumpher over common sense (New England is one), the discharge of treated waste is legal in more places than you think. On the east coast the only NDZ of any size between Connecticut and the Keys are parts of the VA and NC coast. Contrary to popular belief, although all the harbors on LIS are NDZs, LIS itself is not. The only NDZ on the whole Chesapeake Bay is Herring Bay--a small harbor about halfway between Annapolis and Solomons. The Keys are the only NDZ in FL...in fact, there are only two in the entire Gulf--The Keys and Destin Harbor. On the west coast, SoCal is a "hotbed" of NDZs, but north of Santa Barbara there's only one--a small harbor off SF Bay called Richardson Bay--on the whole west coast.

Inland, although all the non-navigable inTRAstate lakes are NDZs, the discharge of treated waste is legal on almost all of the navigable interstate waterways (rivers).

And there are a number of equally well-meaning but short-sighted marinas who think that putting waste in a tank and sending it to a sewage treatment plant to dump in the water is "doing the right thing"....the discharge of treated waste IS legal in most coastal waters.

As for NDZs...they're all just political. We've had laws on the books for 30 years that require all vessels to either hold or treat toilet waste...fewer than 5% have ever, or are every likely to, installed treatment devices...the other 95% should already be holding! And 5 boats out of every 100 who are discharging "waste" that's actually cleaner than the water it's going do not have ANY noticeable environmental impact!
__________________
2016 Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since '87.
Author "The NEW Get Rid of Boat Odors"
HeadMistress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2016, 02:54 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
City: Ashland
Country: United States
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 167
Peggy--

You have not justified spending $3K+ for on board treatment. Other than having a "feel good, I just saved the waterways" sensation there is no justification. If an installed, working system was allowed to dump into NDZs, I would bite my tongue, say no more against crack pot environmentalists and just install one.
foggysail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2016, 04:04 PM   #19
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 12,936
Simple to install and way less than $3K depending on all the frills or particular boat peculiarities.

$1080.95 on sale right now for the basic unit.

I have seen one boat after another do 3K in damages to themselves or others moving to the pumpout weekly (whatever) if they are at a marina a where there is no portable, honey boat or in slip pumpout ability.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2016, 04:25 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
City: Ashland
Country: United States
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 167
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Simple to install and way less than $3K depending on all the frills or particular boat peculiarities.

$1080.95 on sale right now for the basic unit.

I have seen one boat after another do 3K in damages to themselves or others moving to the pumpout weekly (whatever) if they are at a marina a where there is no portable, honey boat or in slip pumpout ability.


If the cost was only $100 there remains no justifiable reason to install such a system other than to think you are saving the environment. Here in Massachusetts there are only two legal ways to rid waste. First is to go beyond the three mile limit......that means 3 miles south of Matha's Vineyard, about 18 miles from slip and another 18 miles to return to slip OR call the pump out boat.

So your approach to prevent damage to neighbors is to subject yourself risking receiving an environmental citation from one of our many gun carrying environmental police operating in $250K+ taxpayer paid boats.
__________________

foggysail is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012