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Old 12-18-2015, 11:21 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by WesK View Post
Where and what law? How are boaters supposed to have their (boat) bottoms cleaned? (I suppose the government doesn't really care about that question.)

Do some divers clean the bottom anyway when no one is looking?

Someone is trading no bottom cleaning for excessive fuel burn and pollution. Makes no sense to me.
Washington was the first state to ban copper bottom paints.

And from their web site on this subject:

ITíS A FACT: It is illegal to perform underwater cleaning of hulls with soft, toxic coatings (ablative and sloughing). You can face a fine of up to $10,000. (RCW 90.48.080, WAC 173-201A)
Most boats used in marine waters have hulls coated with soft toxic paints (ablative or sloughing) to keep aquatic organisms from attaching. These coatings contain toxic chemicals that are poisonous to salmon and aquatic life. Toxic chemicals are released when you disturb or clean soft toxic paints.

If your boat hull has soft toxic paint, do NOT clean it in or near the water, or near a stormdrain.

Know your hullís surface before you clean it. If it has soft toxic paint, take your boat out of water to a facility that collects all discharges and debris. To do this work yourself on land, use a tarp and vacuum sander to collect all debris, and dispose of it properly.


They suggest non toxic hard coatings or epoxy based hard paints.

Here is their page on cleaning of boats..

Hull Cleaning and Boat Washing | Clean Green Boating | Washington State Department of Ecology
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Old 12-18-2015, 01:09 PM   #22
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I don't think copper bottom paint is outlawed in Washington. The large yard we use still uses it on our boat and many if not most of the boat's in our harbor also use it. The amount of copper in the paint may be regulated, but not the use of copper itself.

The regulations may have changed recently but as of our last bottom paint application (this past August) ablative paint containing copper was used.

However, these bottoms cannot be wiped down by a diver in the water. Barnacles can be scraped off but overall wipe-downs are not permitted. I believe wipe downs are still permitted on boats with hard-paint bottoms. But most boaters in our harbor seem to prefer the ablative paints as you don't get the buildup over time with this type of paint.
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Old 12-18-2015, 01:18 PM   #23
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I never get growth on my prop. I use my boat. I use nothing on the props. And have never had an issue.

With that said, I have heard that surfboard wax does a great job. Not sure how it would affect the dynamics of the prop but I would imagine the stuff staying on there for quite some time. There are dayglo colored waxes so you could see when it was gone. One would also be able to apply it underwater. Just a thought.
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Old 12-18-2015, 01:54 PM   #24
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I don't think copper bottom paint is outlawed in Washington. The large yard we use still uses it on our boat and many if not most of the boat's in our harbor also use it. The amount of copper in the paint may be regulated, but not the use of copper itself.

The regulations may have changed recently but as of our last bottom paint application (this past August) ablative paint containing copper was used.

However, these bottoms cannot be wiped down by a diver in the water. Barnacles can be scraped off but overall wipe-downs are not permitted. I believe wipe downs are still permitted on boats with hard-paint bottoms. But most boaters in our harbor seem to prefer the ablative paints as you don't get the buildup over time with this type of paint.
Yes, the section I referenced above would say you can clean hard paint bottoms but cannot wipe down an ablative bottom. For that reason, even without others, I'd choose a hard bottom paint if there. I choose hard in South Florida but for different reasons.

As to the copper paint,I was quoting only a headline without the content. Boat US in Feb/Mar 2012 has an article that I quote below. You are right about a limit, but a very low limit. It also is not in effect yet and applies to 65' and under only. So today, people are still using copper.

More than two decades ago, the U.S. outlawed toxic tributyltin (TBT) in antifouling bottom paint, and copper-based substitutes took over to control marine growth on the hull. Last year, Washington became the first state to ban copper paint on environmental grounds.

When it comes to painting the bottom of a recreational vessel's hull to discourage marine growth, boaters currently have a wide array of products from which to choose. And while the choices can be a bit bewildering, beginning January 1, 2020, boaters in the state of Washington can scratch off their lists any paints that contain more than 0.5 percent copper. That's because last year, in response to concerns about contamination in Washington waters, the state legislature outlawed copper-based antifouling paints. (Paints on the market today contain 20- to 70-percent copper.)


I also found the Port of Edmonds distributed a document explaining it's impact. http://portofedmonds.org/wp-content/...opper-free.pdf
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Old 12-18-2015, 02:17 PM   #25
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Yes, the section I referenced above would say you can clean hard paint bottoms but cannot wipe down an ablative bottom. For that reason, even without others, I'd choose a hard bottom paint if there.
Ablative paints are preferred here because it eliminates the buildup issue. We have noticed little difference in growth between when we used to have a diver wipe down the bottom of our PNW boat every six months and the last few years when we couldn't have this done.

Of course the paint eventually wears out so if the bottom is not repainted the acceleration of growth can be significant. Also if a boat just sits most of the time (which tends to describe the bulk of the recreational boats in any harbor) an ablative paint may not be the best choice because it's not being sloughed off periodically to expose the fresh anti-fouling ingredients underneath.

We use our boat year round so for us, ablative makes much more sense than hard paint.
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Old 12-18-2015, 02:42 PM   #26
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Ablative paints are preferred here because it eliminates the buildup issue. We have noticed little difference in growth between when we used to have a diver wipe down the bottom of our PNW boat every six months and the last few years when we couldn't have this done.

Of course the paint eventually wears out so if the bottom is not repainted the acceleration of growth can be significant. Also if a boat just sits most of the time (which tends to describe the bulk of the recreational boats in any harbor) an ablative paint may not be the best choice because it's not being sloughed off periodically to expose the fresh anti-fouling ingredients underneath.

We use our boat year round so for us, ablative makes much more sense than hard paint.
Ablative has a very short life in our area. Just goes to show the difference from one place to another.
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Old 12-18-2015, 02:48 PM   #27
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I got almost 3 years out of propspeed without any growth other than on the nut. My biggest growth problem by far is on my stainless keel shoe. This requires a good scrape at least every 6 months as it affects the water flow to the prop.
At a haul-out 6 months ago I tried a cheap fix and coated the shoe with a $10 can of spray on zinc galvanizer. It made no difference at all when I hauled out again last month. I might propspeed the shoe next time I do the prop.
Had that same problem for many years until I discovered that applying bottom paint directly to metal, even with a prime coat, depletes the action of the bottom paint in a few days. You need a barrier coat. I use two coats of epoxy after grinding a good "tooth" for it to hold on to. I thicken the 2nd coat with silica. Problem solved. The epoxy coats last 5 years if I don't rub them off on the bottom.
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Old 12-18-2015, 03:28 PM   #28
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So divers cannot clean ablative bottom paint in the water but they can clean hard paint? That wasn't clear in the first post. I use Petit Trinidad SR 77 and I assume that would be classified as "hard paint" and could be cleaned by a diver, right?


The EPA and tree huggers will have us all out of the water and driving motor homes eventually if we don't put up some resistance.
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Old 12-18-2015, 05:02 PM   #29
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I use Petit Trinidad SR 77 and I assume that would be classified as "hard paint" and could be cleaned by a diver, right?
If the paint you use is classified as non-ablative then at this point in this state it can be wiped down in the water. If it's not classified as a non-ablative paint then it cannot be wiped down in the water.

There are also a bunch of regulations that govern how a boat's bottom is cleaned on shore, too. These apply to all boat bottoms, not just ones with ablative paint on them. The yards add the cost of complying with these regulations to the cost of a haulout and cleaning, even if you do the cleaning yourself.


Quote:
The EPA and tree huggers will have us all out of the water and driving motor homes eventually if we don't put up some resistance.
These regulations are conceived and passed by folks with no real interest in hearing what boaters have to say. The decisions are made at a far higher level than one low enough to take into account user opinions.

There may be an opportunity at the outset for a user (boater in this case) to express an opinion-- usually for these kinds of things today it's a website to which one can submit their opinion in writing. But even if the opinions are overwhelmingly against the proposed environmental restriction it's been our observation that it ends up being enacted into law anyway. I am not aware of single environmental protection regulation proposal in this state that has ever not been enacted eventually, although there may well be some I've not heard of.

I actually don't mind them. I'm all for not poisoning fish and sea creatures or contributing to the deterioration of the water, fresh or salt. I fish a lot in both environments and I'm not so naive as to think that the fish and what they eat will do just fine if we continue practices that cause them to get sick and/or die or kill off their sources of food.

So I have no problem with the requirement to not wipe down ablative bottoms in the water. I've seen the clouds of stuff that comes off when you do and if I was living in the water I wouldn't want to be taking that in.
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Old 12-18-2015, 07:22 PM   #30
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I got almost 3 years out of propspeed without any growth other than on the nut. My biggest growth problem by far is on my stainless keel shoe. This requires a good scrape at least every 6 months as it affects the water flow to the prop.
At a haul-out 6 months ago I tried a cheap fix and coated the shoe with a $10 can of spray on zinc galvanizer. It made no difference at all when I hauled out again last month. I might propspeed the shoe next time I do the prop.
I understand the temptation, but I`m told Propspeed only works on things that turn, spinning any growth off before it takes hold. I was ready to Propspeed shafts, skegs, and props, until the shipwrights told me doing the skegs, which foul badly, would not work and would be a waste of $. So we did the props and shafts,I won`t know until the boat comes up how it is going, unless I take a swim inspection over the hols.
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Old 12-18-2015, 09:54 PM   #31
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I understand the temptation, but I`m told Propspeed only works on things that turn, spinning any growth off before it takes hold. I was ready to Propspeed shafts, skegs, and props, until the shipwrights told me doing the skegs, which foul badly, would not work and would be a waste of $. So we did the props and shafts,I won`t know until the boat comes up how it is going, unless I take a swim inspection over the hols.
While things that turn may stay cleaner, I don't think the shipwrights who told you Propspeed only works on things that turn are correct. Obviously there's only one way to prove it. Now we've used it on things that don't turn and found it effective.
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Old 12-18-2015, 11:12 PM   #32
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While things that turn may stay cleaner, I don't think the shipwrights who told you Propspeed only works on things that turn are correct. Obviously there's only one way to prove it. Now we've used it on things that don't turn and found it effective.
In that case the advice I was given to not have it put it on the rudder was incorrect. Still, the rudder never takes much to clean off, but I always did feel that Propspeed on it should work. The shoe always has to be scraped, I am resigned to that, especially as I don't do it anyway.
How do you find it on the rudder BB..?
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Old 12-18-2015, 11:49 PM   #33
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While things that turn may stay cleaner, I don't think the shipwrights who told you Propspeed only works on things that turn are correct. Obviously there's only one way to prove it. Now we've used it on things that don't turn and found it effective.
If you are right it was a "lose-lose". I was set to do the lot and had the impression the shipwright fessed up last moment, against his own interest, I would waste $ doing the static parts. I`ll never know unless I ignore the advice and do the lot next time.
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Old 12-19-2015, 12:01 AM   #34
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When we did my props we only used half a kit of Propspeed, ie part of one can of the etch primer and 75% of the topcoat. My detailer was doing the AF and propspeed at haulout and he was happy to take the unopened and unused half of the kit. But next time we will prep all of the metal and use the full kit. I'm sure there will plenty of the Primer to do it. If we run out of the top coat before all the miscellaneous metal is done then it can have something else. I'm thinking of doing the bronze thru hulls as well....
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Old 12-19-2015, 12:03 AM   #35
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In that case the advice I was given to not have it put it on the rudder was incorrect. Still, the rudder never takes much to clean off, but I always did feel that Propspeed on it should work. The shoe always has to be scraped, I am resigned to that, especially as I don't do it anyway.
How do you find it on the rudder BB..?
Well, first a caveat. We had boats on the lake and knew nothing about Propspeed and very little about bottom paint. Then we moved to the coast and we've never had a boat here without using Propspeed. So, all we can compare to is other people and to try to guage we base it on professional captains and engineers with far more experience than us. If it's metal, we use it. That includes everything from thru hulls to stabilizers. We don't personally know how some of those items would be without, just how they are with. From what we've observed and been told, props and shafts are where it helps most but as long as we're paying to have a boat hauled and have it applied we just feel it's a good investment everywhere. We do not have a problem as a result.

I think one reason many don't use it other places is that they're focused on performance and economy as their purpose for use. Barnacles on rudders and thru hulls and thrusters and stabilizers don't play much of a role there. We know we live in a very bad area for growth so we just try to keep everything clean. Out bottom cleaner says it sure makes his job easier.

A couple of other things we've been told is that it's not very protective against abrasion such as items hit or sandy bottoms kicked up. Also, if you're docked at a marina with a high degree of electrolysis, the Propspeed will not stay on.

The diving and the Propspeed are not a cheap route. Those expert with Propspeed charge accordingly, just like the best painters do. We do feel we ultimately save though with less need to haul out and less frequent bottom painting. Even more than that, we avoid time with the boat not available for use. The slick top coat is only one part of the entire process and package.

Found a photo to specifically address your rudder question. This boat in the photo had Propspeed used on the right side only as a test. This was the boat when hauled after 6 months.

Click image for larger version

Name:	Dans_Boat__Taco_6_months.jpg
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Old 12-19-2015, 12:05 AM   #36
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When we did my props we only used half a kit of Propspeed, ie part of one can of the etch primer and 75% of the topcoat. My detailer was doing the AF and propspeed at haulout and he was happy to take the unopened and unused half of the kit. But next time we will prep all of the metal and use the full kit. I'm sure there will plenty of the Primer to do it. If we run out of the top coat before all the miscellaneous metal is done then it can have something else. I'm thinking of doing the bronze thru hulls as well....
One comment. Do not haul and let the areas dry before wiping the Propspeed areas clean. Make sure that's done while still wet.
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Old 12-19-2015, 01:33 AM   #37
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Found a photo to specifically address your rudder question. This boat in the photo had Propspeed used on the right side only as a test. This was the boat when hauled after 6 months.

Attachment 47454
Wow...I'm a convert...I'll advise the new owner, (thinking positively here, although very slow progress selling), to do rudder as well at least.
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Old 12-19-2015, 09:04 AM   #38
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Wow...I'm a convert...I'll advise the new owner, (thinking positively here, although very slow progress selling), to do rudder as well at least.
Oh, the boat in the photo is a Riviera in Australia, too.
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Old 12-20-2015, 07:15 AM   #39
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"the boat in the photo is a Riviera in Australia, too."

Be sure to specify the hemisphere when ordering prop goop

reverse Coriolis effect might invite hard growth.
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Old 12-20-2015, 11:31 AM   #40
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"the boat in the photo is a Riviera in Australia, too."

Be sure to specify the hemisphere when ordering prop goop

reverse Coriolis effect might invite hard growth.
Wifey B: Bet you didn't know that is the easiest way to remove growth. Just take your boat across the equator and it will all just leap off like flushing a toilet.
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