Gadget for filling 1 lb propane tanks from.....

[firehoser75]

"From the very first time you use a one pound bottle, the seal may leak once the valve in the bottle has been opened as you screw it onto your device."


I found this to be true also!! I used them (but did not refill) many years ago, and had some leaks that were troublesome. To me, a strong indicator of the dependability and true safety of these cheap bottles.
Like you, as indicated by the profession we chose, and the fact that I used to sky dive, scuba dive, etc., I am not risk adverse. However, having been a professional risk manager, the (potential) cost to benefit just does not weigh out for me on this one.
From the sounds of this thread, I am in the minority in this opinion, but I just don't understand the thinking especially since the gain is actually very minimal (convenience really).
Enjoy and be safe!

 

[psneeld]

Maybe because those of us that have been doing it for decades hardly ever have a bottle that is a problem. If one does I toss it and use a newer or different one.


But just to be more "legally compliant" and a hair more safe I guess (really just added benefit)...I ordered 2 SPECIFICALLY designed to be refilled bottles that are engineered differently and certified to be transported by the US DOT.


However I have no qualms about refilling relatively new bottles....and my safety quals are somewhat lofty too.

 

[firehoser75]

Quote from my earlier post:
"A little storey. On one boat we looked at when boat shopping (happened to be an American Tug 34), when I looked into the cockpit lazerette (a totally enclosed space) I found that the current owner stored a plastic gas can (about 10 liters) and a 20 lb propane bottle down there. Also in the space (laz) was an electric stern thruster motor, 2 lead acid batteries, and a dedicated battery charger. What a recipe for disaster!!!! Open ignition sources in the same enclosed space as he chose to improperly store flammables (gases from the liquid fuels). Darwin at work, IMHO."


This guy didn't have any problems either!! For him, relying on dumb luck worked......... this time. Doesn't make what he was doing right, wise, or, in my opinion, even sane
Just so no one gets offended (because that is not my intent), I am only using this as an example (albeit extreme) for the explanation that "I haven't had any problems so far", and am only talking about the (then) owner of that boat in this post

Nuff said, signing off on this thread as my dead horse is getting tired of being beaten.
Scott, good call on getting the "refillable" bottles.

 

[Woodland Hills]

I don’t have any issue with refilling small cylinders, but why not just use a hose from the big bottle to the device instead?

 

[psneeld]

I don’t have any issue with refilling small cylinders, but why not just use a hose from the big bottle to the device instead?

Previously discussed.

Post 17

 

[SteveK]

post #17 Being able to use the portable grill out of the wind and not relocate everything.
Being able to use the grill, despite being out of propane in little bottles without running to a store (not always convenient).

I don’t have any issue with refilling small cylinders, but why not just use a hose from the big bottle to the device instead?

Previously discussed. Post 17

Please explain post 17. I do not see how it answers the question. A hose off the main bottle can be run anywhere a 1lb can be used.

All this discussion on filling 1lb bottles, why no discussion on filling a 5 or 10lb bottle off a 20lb.

 

[jleonard]

Please explain post 17. I do not see how it answers the question. A hose off the main bottle can be run anywhere a 1lb can be used.

All this discussion on filling 1lb bottles, why no discussion on filling a 5 or 10lb bottle off a 20lb.

I don't think it would make much sense to fill a 10 lb from a 20 lb.
A 5 lb perhaps.
I've refilled 1 lb bottles for almost 30 years. Yes I understand the risks but I also did my homework/research (I'm an engineer I do my homework). I also stored them where they could vent overboard.
A 1 # bottle fits under the 20 lb tank when you turn the tank upside down. It takes a few minutes to fill, so this means you don't have to hold the big tank.
You'd have to make a special holder to fill a 5 pounder most likely.
I guess everyone's mileage varies.
I also like single engines, Danforth anchors, one battery bank, etc.

 

[Knot Fast]

I had a propane journey....maybe something here is useful to another. I use 20# cylinders hosed to a weber Q grill that was designed for 1# tanks.

My boat came with three ~20# fiberglass propane tanks. 2 fit in the propane locker, 1 in a locker next to it. The boat originally had a propane stove, but it was removed >10y ago.

One fiberglass tank was a "Lite Cylinder" brand, subject to a recall, company out of business. Two were Viking Cylinders (some sold under Trident brand by West Marine, ~17#). All were full and expired.

Viking tech support was great, introduced me to Propane Ninja's in Tampa. Ninja's accepted my "Lite" for proper emptying and disposal. They emptied my Vikings, tested & re-certified them for 5y and refilled them. All for about $40!

Ninja's had a ~50 used Viking fiberglass 20# tanks they were selling for $25/ea, filled with a fresh 5y certification. They had come off some program. If near Tampa, that's a good deal.

I like the hose to grill set up. I installed a quick-connect fitting, so the hose is off and stored in the propane locker unless I'm grilling. I grill 2x/wk. It will be a challenge to use the propane in two 20# tanks with the mini weber before they are up for new 5y certifications. Everyone's circumstances are different; nobody wants to run out of gas while cooking....

 

[Woodland Hills]

Previously discussed.

Post 17

Still don’t get it. When tent camping I had a manifold that attached to the 25 lb bottle and then ran hoses to stove, lights, Buddy Heater and Coleman water heater. One hose was 25’ long to the wall tent from the kitchen area by the picnic table. This cannot be done on a boat?

 

[rsn48]

So there is a company that says there one pound bottles are DOT approved to be refillable. I have to wonder if they are the same as the standard one pounder. So I thought I would google and what I found floored me. The price for the one pounder - Canadian - is roughly the same price as a 20 pounder.

https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=refillabl...563057&tag=googcana-20&ref=pd_sl_1dpmsmqae0_e

I wonder how sales are going?

 

[psneeld]

As I said before in post #19


"Makes no sense to some and plenty to others...like lots of things in boating ...well.... life in general."


I can relate to those who don't understand...often there are PLENTY of posts on TF I don't understand...

 

[HopCar]

When I was selling propane outboards, sailors would always ask about refilling the 1 pound bottles. Sailors are notoriously cheap but in this instance I understand. If you pay $4.00 for a one pound bottle you’re paying about $16.00 per gallon. If you pay $20.00 for a twenty pound refill you’re paying about $4.00 per gallon.

I always suggested they use a larger tank connected by hose but they often didn’t want the tank taking up space in the dinghy.

A pound of propane would run the 2.5 hp outboard for about an hour.

 

[AKDoug]

Still don’t get it. When tent camping I had a manifold that attached to the 25 lb bottle and then ran hoses to stove, lights, Buddy Heater and Coleman water heater. One hose was 25’ long to the wall tent from the kitchen area by the picnic table. This cannot be done on a boat?

Disconnecting an installed system to connect a hose to would be inconvenient, and to properly install, a second dedicated regulator and solenoid are required. A Y off a line past the regulator doesn't meet the standard, you can Y off before the regulator but not after, and each line is required to be continuous from the solenoid to the end of the run. Also required to have no connections in the line, but a single run of copper line or hose from solenoid to device. Only one device on each regulator.

When you decide not to meet all the requirements, one pound cylinders make a lot of sense. I can cook (grill) 6-8 meals off a single one pound cylinder, averaging 40 minutes of cook time per meal. Two full one pound cylinders are more than enough for a week or more away from the dock.

 

[ssobol]

The Coleman 1 lb. propane bottles have a relief valve. It would seem that overfilling or overpressure is not that much of a risk. Although it might depend on what happens to the vented propane.

My issue is what do you do with the empty bottles if you don't refill them? I am building a collection. I have inquired about recycling them, but no one will take them. The trash collectors frown on potentially explosive stuff being dumped in the trash and compacted in the truck.

 

[denverd0n]

My issue is what do you do with the empty bottles if you don't refill them?

Here in Pasco county Florida, you are SUPPOSED to take them to the county's hazardous waste site. I would be surprised if anyone ever does.


As far as refilling them, it is not completely without risk, but then nothing in life is. There are probably lots of people in this world who think it is too dangerous to take a 40' boat out into the ocean. Yet we all know that the risks are manageable, and most of us choose to go ahead and do it -- at least some of the time. So, each of us makes our own choices about what risks we feel are manageable and acceptable, in this matter as well as all others.

 

[Vinny]

I've got one of the early models that I use to refill 1# bottles. A trick I learned was to freeze the empty 1# bottle before refilling. The cooler bottle allows more liquid propane to enter. At least that is the theory behind it.

This is easy to check out, fill one the "normal" way and the other the "freezing" method and weigh both. Report back.

You can download instructions on how to use the adaptors from Harbor Freight. Their instructions say to refrigerate the one pound bottle also before filling.

I think these adaptors are handy to have when needed, and cheap to buy too... I’ve seen them at a way too high price of $30, and as low as “free” with $2 shipping on Wish.com.

I think Harbor Freight is at $17.99, which I think is too high also.

I don’t think I would keep a bottle around that I would have to tap on to seal though. Bottles are cheap enough to just set that leaker aside to bleed out (and trash) and start with a new one. The adaptor I use is the POL thread type... never any issues using it.

 

[Little dougie]

Have a buddy that blew himself and boat up doing this. But he's a dumbass. Lucky he's alive.

 

[AKDoug]

You can download instructions on how to use the adaptors from Harbor Freight. Their instructions say to refrigerate the one pound bottle also before filling.

I think these adaptors are handy to have when needed, and cheap to buy too... I’ve seen them at a way too high price of $30, and as low as “free” with $2 shipping on Wish.com.

I think Harbor Freight is at $17.99, which I think is too high also.

I don’t think I would keep a bottle around that I would have to tap on to seal though. Bottles are cheap enough to just set that leaker aside to bleed out (and trash) and start with a new one. The adaptor I use is the POL thread type... never any issues using it.

When you fill the bottles, you have to purge the air out of the one pound bottle before filling, I use a small screwdriver to depress the valve. Then fill the purged bottle, purge it again when it stops filling, and then finish filling the one pound bottle. When I said "tapping", I meant I use the screwdriver to bump the valve to make sure the valve is seated completely. If it's not, you will smell mercaptan, or hear it hissing. A couple of drops of water into the seat of the valve will show bubbles of gas if you have any leakage.

Any one pound bottle may leak after it has been removed from any device partially used, even brand new ones. This is why DOT says you can't transport one pound cylinders unless they are new, as in unused!

 

[Nickair]

Thanks for the links. I like the purpose refillable 1# tank. Got to get two.

 

[catalinajack]

No doubt many folks have refilled non-refillable bottles for many years successfully. Wise and inherently safe? I don't think so. As with many things boating and non-boating, just because one does something potentially dangerous without incident for a long time is in no way evidence of anything except perhaps luck. However, if one wishes take the risk with these one-use bottles my hope is that I am never anywhere nearby. Same for using Honda gas generators. Stay away from me.

Now, onto the Flame King product. I recently purchased their refillable bottle and filling valve. It is a breeze to use and comes with a nice screw-on sealing safety cap. We have a nice, standard backyard gas grill on our aft deck that I supply with either a 20# or 30# bottle. I like to keep a 1# bottle aboard in case I have reason to use a torch. I can also use it to supply our portable single-burner hob that is usually used with single-use butane bottles.

 

[HopCar]

One problem with refilling a propane can is you can’t get it full. The reason is that as the liquid propane goes into the can, it boils and raises the pressure in the can until it matches the pressure in the big tank and the liquid stops flowing. The higher the temperature the less propane you can transfer.

There are two ways around this. Freeze the can before you try to fill it so the liquid propane doesn’t boil as fast. The other way is to vent the can as you’re filling it.

The Flame King is set up to easily vent the can. It also is designed that the can is vertical when it is being filled.

If you are refilling a disposable can, you can vent it by pulling up on the stem of the over pressure relief valve with needle nose pliers.

It is possible to over fill the can with either method so be sure to weigh the can before and after filling.

Since I took up bee keeping I’ve been using a lot of disposable cans. I use a torch to light the smoker. Because I’m not a good bee keeper, I have to relight it often.

I think I’ll spring for one of the Flame King sets and give it a try.

 

[firehoser75]

Sorry to revive this thread, but I just read a Practical Sailor article about an LPG caused boat explosion (from a few years ago, the explosion I mean) and thought some here might be interested in a quote from article about BBQ's:


"Because grills are located above decks, boaters tend to treat them with a more cavalier safety attitude than galley ranges. Bad idea. According to the Insurance Information Institute, each year, grills cause more than 2,000 fires, over 300 related injuries, and at least three deaths."
I never realized the extent of reported problems, and believe me, many problems go "unreported" if minor in nature.
Just thought if even one TF member benefited, I should post this
Oh, by the way, in this case, the explosion was not caused by a BBQ.

 

[Northern Spy]

So what is the difference between a disposable cylinder and a refillable cylinder or a pressure vessel?

The disposable cylinder has no corrosion allowance as it is intended for one time use.

The refillable cylinders and vessels are post weld heat treated (PWHT). This minimizes the stresses imparted to the steel during rolling and welding and restores the ductility of the steel.

Disposable cylinders are not PWHT. The stresses remain. The design of the vessel is actually limited by this.

Every time you refill, you are imparting thermodynamic and cyclic loads onto the cylinder that the designer never anticipated.

For those of you freezing the cylinders, you are further lowering the ductility of the steel at the time of refilling, and increasing the thermodynamic stresses as well.

You can "get away" refilling these cylinders because the service factor imparted by the design engineer and the associated calculations ends up being a multiple of the actual design pressure and temperature requirements.

As cyclic fatigue, corrosion, and stress risers from scratches and dents accumulate, one is working the service factor down until it actually fails.

Ideally the relief will leak first, causing you to throw away the cylinder before it catastrophically fails.

A worse situation is if the relief fails to open at the set pressure. But you would never know. Because it is disposable...

I believe that the real concern the government has with refilling disposable cylinders is that one can fill them with something other than they were intended for. You can buy disposable cylinders for refrigerants and helium, etc. These gases have different saturation pressures-temperature values and using them for something other than intended could be quite dangerous as they could be overfilled and the pressure relief valve setting would be incorrect for the substance.

Seems like a false economy to me.

Shrug...

I can buy 3 cylinders for the cost of a six-pack of microbrew. (Yes beer is expensive in Canada. (Cheap alcohol is arguably another false economy)).

Just like anything, do whatever the heck you want in life, as long as it doesn't affect me. But there really is no excuse for not understanding the underlying principals and consequences and then making your own informed decision, when we have access to such an amazing amount of reference material on the interwebs.

PS: I work in one of the most regulated pressure equipment jurisdictions in the world, Alberta, so yeah, I am definitely on the conservative side of this discussion. But we don't blow to many things up here either. If you want to see spectacular failures, direct your browser to www.csb.gov.

 

[psneeld]

Sounds a lot less than auto deaths.....yet.... we probably all drive.

Some better than others...just like grilling.

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

Not sure it's worth the risk. Spent my career in finance calculating risk/reward. Those green 'one time use' cylinders are so inexpensive at Home Depot ...etc that to me, it's not worth the risk. We use the standard 20lb propane canisters on our boat for the galley stove - when empty, or low, we swap them out almost anywhere - gas stations, grocery stores, HD or Lowes..... no problem. And yes we have an ABYC compliant propane system aboard - at least when I compete the install

 

[psneeld]

Lot's of talk of risk...but does anyone really know "how risky"?

 

[Northern Spy]

But yet we have rules and regulations for constructing, operating, and in some jurisdictions, inspecting autos.

Here, one is either ignorant of or willfully ignoring the rules and regulations. Most are likely ignorant of why the rules exist.

Sounds a lot less than auto deaths.....yet.... we probably all drive.

Some better than others...just like grilling.

 

[Northern Spy]

Risk is a factor of consequence and likelihood.

For me, understanding the consequences associated with flammable gas (270x the amount of liquid) on my boat outweighs the limited likelihood.

And I understand the engineering behind it.

I just wish to point out the how's and why's so people can make informed choices.

No different then running a red light. If you don't see anyone around, the likelihood of collision is minimal. It's when you don't see the other guy is when the consequences manifest themselves.

Funny thing is, traffic rules, and application of them are different all over the world. Risk acceptance is different for every person and culture; high or low risk, doesn't make it bad per se.

But not understanding the risk is.... well... ignorant.

Lot's of talk of risk...but does anyone really know "how risky"?

 

[psneeld]

NS...you had s great post and I agree...

But as far as rules...not sure which are being broken..especially with the DOT compliant refillable ones....especially if you don't transport on roads.

Either way, I was never comfy with the disposable types...that's why I went to the refillable kind.

Still would love to know the actual number of mishaps per (number) refills.

 

[Northern Spy]

Nope. You are absolutely right. The DOT created the standard, and therefore they can only enforce the standard within their mandate. On the roads. Other than that they are toothless. Which is fine, I don't want DOT oversight on my boat or in my house.

Other jurisdictions would have to create a law based on adopting their standard.

But the intent of the standard is still valid. The cylinders are designed and engineered for single use and disposable.

Purchasing a Flame King reusable cylinder makes a lot of sense to me.

They are built to a completely different standard. There are a lot of differences in the design. Foot ring, threaded fill, radiographed, corrosion allowance, stamped tare...

NS...you had s great post and I agree...

But as far as rules...not sure which are being broken..especially with the DOT compliant refillable ones....especially if you don't transport on roads.

Either way, I was never comfy with the disposable types...that's why I went to the refillable kind.

Still would love to know the actual number of mishaps per (number) refills.