Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-31-2015, 08:34 AM   #41
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,605
Thanks, but I can not take credit. It was all the PO's hard work. It was one of the compelling reasons we bought this particular boat.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
__________________
Advertisement

JDCAVE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2015, 09:19 AM   #42
Guru
 
Mule's Avatar
 
City: Fort Pierce
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Florita Ann
Vessel Model: 1982 Present
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,784
Cajun...
I like the way you think, and I do agree that boat cutting suxs. With the forward tank available, you seem to think it is clean, seems to me if you engineer the plumbing correctly you can have the best fuel system ever. That dry ice deal is great, just make sure YOU are ventilated too.

Should you choose aluminum (my choice) remember it is a very sacrificial metal. Even countersunk steel screws the humidity in the air will set up electrolysis. The bunks they set on should be covered with light cloth and glassed, same with the new tanks. This is cheap and easy. Be very, very sure no superior metal can touch. I used the above techniques and removed all retaining straps and glued them down with 5200. Could glassem in I guess. Under tank ventilation might be good too, anything to keep moisture away. And bonded the tanks, of course.

Each baffle (may not need baffles with multiple small tanks) should have access plates, or at the minimum 2- 3/8" or larger access holes for a fuel polisher to shove tubes into to churn, filter and recirculate your fuel.

Lastly, insofar as most Diesel engine failures are caused by bad fuel either existing trash in tank(s) or a bad load. Cases like this negates most of the advantage of twins, one gets skunk fuel both get skunk fuel, both go down. Why not have a day tank where you filter the next days fuel each evening, easily checking vacuum, filters and water content BEFORE getting underway? Then you KNOW you are good to go. With the process you are about to go through accomplishing should all be a small additional dollar add on(s).
__________________

Mule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2015, 09:56 AM   #43
TF Site Team
 
Pack Mule's Avatar
 
City: Paris,TN
Country: USA
Vessel Name: William
Vessel Model: Outer reef 32
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,501
Our boat has 4 new aluminum tanks . 2 @ 125gal and 2 @ 55 gal . I'm not sure what the original tanks were, but it played a big part in our decision to purchase this boat . The install is good but I wish they would have done a neater job getting the old ones out , but slicking the area up is on my long list of things to do .
__________________
Marty
Pack Mule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2015, 10:01 AM   #44
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pack Mule View Post
Our boat has 4 new aluminum tanks . 2 @ 125gal and 2 @ 55 gal . I'm not sure what the original tanks were, but it played a big part in our decision to purchase this boat . The install is good but I wish they would have done a neater job getting the old ones out , but slicking the area up is on my long list of things to do .
Hi Marty - At 360 total gals (288 w/ 20% reserve) what is your longest cruising range at most economical speed?
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2015, 07:58 PM   #45
Senior Member
 
City: Marathon
Country: Usa
Vessel Name: silver gift
Vessel Model: 45 jefferson
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 202
Had tank issues on the Jefferson. Pulled both tanks by hanging engines over each other while putting in tanks. Of course I have Perkins so not as big as your engines. Yard weaned to cut hull also but I questioned how they were to glass ribs behind engines,they had no answer. Did it myself with help from guys I gave fuel to. Good luck.
Deckape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2015, 09:41 PM   #46
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 120
If you can get any access to the side of the tank, I would look into cutting a hole in the side large enough to work with and then possibly drop a flexible rubber type bladder in there....have you looked at that option?
Much cheaper than the other methods and may work well.
Taras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2015, 10:48 PM   #47
Guru
 
Capt.Bill11's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 5,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taras View Post
If you can get any access to the side of the tank, I would look into cutting a hole in the side large enough to work with and then possibly drop a flexible rubber type bladder in there....have you looked at that option?
Much cheaper than the other methods and may work well.
How would you get the tank baffles out?
Capt.Bill11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2015, 06:37 AM   #48
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,515
"How would you get the tank baffles out?"

A cut off wheel and perhaps drilling any rivets .
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2015, 07:39 AM   #49
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Ragin Cajun, my boat had exactly this same issue with leaking main tanks. The PO avoided radical surgery by leaving the tanks in there sealed off empty, (I think of them as buoyancy tanks now), and he grabbed the stainless steel tanks in the lazaret for the fuel. The original tanks would have been about 1200L each - way more than ever needed, these stainless tanks are 800L each, and have always been more than we ever needed. I have never even completely filled them.

I the PO made do with a large bladder for water, but I have fitted food grade plastic water tanks inboard of the fuel tanks, also in the lazaret and so they are all easily accessible. The trim is better than before and down wind/sea handling also better. Time has proven this solution was fine, 15 ys later.

However, in your situation, I think FF's suggestion of having the tanks (both of them) cut out enough to fit fuel grade plastic tanks in there, (why bother with any corrodible metal in this day and age?), even if less in volume, especially as they may foist ethanol type mixed fuels which are not great for aluminium on you later on. Also, as FF suggested, best as say 4 tanks, (2 each side), set up so 2 could be kept as reserve tanks for the odd long distance run, but 2 are probably plenty for virtually all other running. You are not going to cross oceans.

If you have them drain from the bottom via connections with taps, you can control what goes where, and if they finally run through easily spun off and changed filters, you can forget the need for fuel polishing, as it is automatic with this system - no crud can form if always draining from the bottom, (Nordhavns do this), and mine is set up like that. My filters last years. If you have the tanks linked side to side they auto-level, and you can even just fill from one side if taken slowly.

The idea of moving perfectly good engines or hacking the sides out is the last resort in my view also, as others have said. and doing just one side is likely to be only a temporary fix, so then you'd have to do the same to the other side anyway.

The above based on personal experience. If I wanted to ever do really long distances in my boat, I'd have the old iron tanks modified by just cutting out the side and the baffles, and the aft end for ease of sliding in the new (smaller = easier to fit) plastic tanks, leaving a sort of trough of steel as a base on each side, (the back side and top could probably be left there for strength and to secure the plastic tanks to, and have fuel grade plastic tanks sat in them and linked via taps to the existing tank fuel lines. I think bladders, as Taras suggested, might not be ideal for fuel in case of the odd sharp edge and some movement not being a good combination.

Just a few thoughts to ponder. Not sure why so few mentioned plastic/synthetic tanks as an option. These are not attacked by corrosion, or dissolved by alcohol as long as the correct type.
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2015, 07:46 AM   #50
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtbrokerguy View Post
I suggest you find a good marine surveyor to look at the boat, look at both tanks, look at moving the engine(s). At the boat yard where I work the yard management really likes a qualified outside surveyor to advise the owner and then there is never a question of the yard suggesting too much work at a higher cost. Plus the documentation from the surveyor will help when selling the boat sometime in the future, and might help in an increase in value, although the increase will be less than your expense.
Here is a picture of an aluminum yacht getting new engines but aluminum is easier to cut and weld back at full strength.

Great idea - and great picture too!


1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's
✌️
__________________
Steve Point Cadet/ Biloxi, Mississippi USA
*Present 42 twin 135 Lehmans
Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2015, 09:07 AM   #51
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Refugio
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter B View Post
Not sure why so few mentioned plastic/synthetic tanks as an option. These are not attacked by corrosion, or dissolved by alcohol as long as the correct type.
Baffles, required for larger tanks, are hard to attach to plastic.

I have fiberglass tanks, built in place. I expect no failures in my lifetime, and condensation inside the tanks is minimal.
__________________
Keith
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2015, 09:56 AM   #52
Senior Member
 
City: Great Lakes
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: NONE
Vessel Model: NONE
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 435
Interesting link on refitting old steel tanks with bladders.
Retro-Fit Your Failed OEM Rigid Fuel Tank With A Flexible ATL Fuel Bladder!

Compared to all other alternatives, this just has to be the way to go for those who have to nearly destroy the boat to remove the old tanks. Like me for instance! Mine are fiberglass encased steel and while they haven't failed yet I have an almost imperceptible leak from somewhere so I know it is virtually inevitable. The welded fittings are rusting so who knows what shape the thin steel is in under the glass. I have 4 200 gal main tanks and two 100 gal keel / day tanks for a total of 1000 gal. I live in terror of the call from the marina that a tank has failed and my bilge pumps just pumped hundreds of gallons of fuel into the water of the marina. I doubt any amount of insurance would cover the plethora of environmental and civil lawsuits that would surely follow.

Not sure if these bladders would work in many instances though as it appears that they must be inserted & assembled through the top. In my case, as in many, the tank top is only 2 inches from the salon floor.

I think Pete has a great idea of inserting plastic tanks in the old tanks but again, if you have the room to do that much cutting, I wonder if it wouldn't be prudent to just keep going. That said, I fully agree that properly constructed plastic replacement tanks just have to be the way to go.
Capt Kangeroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2015, 09:59 AM   #53
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
If it were my boat I'd just let them cut the old tanks out and put in new ones.

I understand not wanting boat surgery but fiberglass is pretty easy to work with in the right hands.

Heck, I've seen several boats over the years that were literally cut in half and a hull extension glassed in. If they can do that kind of work safely they can fix the holes for your tanks.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2015, 12:22 PM   #54
Senior Member
 
ragin cajun's Avatar
 
City: Lafayette, LA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: presently boatless
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
If it were my boat I'd just let them cut the old tanks out and put in new ones.

I understand not wanting boat surgery but fiberglass is pretty easy to work with in the right hands.

Heck, I've seen several boats over the years that were literally cut in half and a hull extension glassed in. If they can do that kind of work safely they can fix the holes for your tanks.

After 2 days going over every possible scenario with boat yard, the cramped engine room left little choice in my decision towards those fuel tanks. The option of removing those 3208s, pulling the trans, turbos and risers then building an A frame hoist system to raise engines would have required taking out front windows then the side salon windows also. This would have torn up my newly finished salon and galley. I was shown 3 boats where the sides were removed to get to fuel tanks then reglassed both inside and out. I would say the repair was better/stronger than the original sides. No way to tell where cuts were made along with a new paint job to boot.

There was no access to the tanks with engines in place to cut out even the sides of those tanks to repair or place bladders inside. Repair cost would have been almost the same to pull engines if nothing needed to be replaced or repaired on them which we all know something will break doing that kind of work.

I went with side removal of tanks. I feel better knowing first hand the quality of fiberglass work that these guys do. I'll get a boat that her fuel system will be all new. No more worrying about a bilge dumping fuel all over Lake Pontchartrain. I have had nightmares over this...not any more.

To all potential boat/trawler buyers, please look closely at any boat with fiberglassed in iron fuel tanks! Be sure you have access to them without having to go through the tear down some of us have gone through.
ragin cajun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2015, 12:57 PM   #55
Guru
 
READY2GO's Avatar
 
City: Marathon, Florida
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Walkabout
Vessel Model: 1989 Sea Ray 380 Aft Cabin
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 521
ragin cajun

Please post pics of the project as it happens so we can learn something. My biggist worry about the process is how can they glass the inside of the hull. Maybe (probably) they know some tricks that I do not.
__________________
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

www.mikeandsharondunsworth.blogspot.com
READY2GO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2015, 03:57 PM   #56
Guru
 
Capt.Bill11's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 5,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"How would you get the tank baffles out?"

A cut off wheel and perhaps drilling any rivets .
My point was, how are you going to reach them through the small hole that most tanks have as access? And if you could reach all the mounting points you'd have to be even more of a contortionist to reach in and cut them up into small enough pieces to fit through the hole.
Capt.Bill11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2015, 04:01 PM   #57
Guru
 
Capt.Bill11's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 5,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragin cajun View Post
After 2 days going over every possible scenario with boat yard, the cramped engine room left little choice in my decision towards those fuel tanks. The option of removing those 3208s, pulling the trans, turbos and risers then building an A frame hoist system to raise engines would have required taking out front windows then the side salon windows also. This would have torn up my newly finished salon and galley. I was shown 3 boats where the sides were removed to get to fuel tanks then reglassed both inside and out. I would say the repair was better/stronger than the original sides. No way to tell where cuts were made along with a new paint job to boot.

There was no access to the tanks with engines in place to cut out even the sides of those tanks to repair or place bladders inside. Repair cost would have been almost the same to pull engines if nothing needed to be replaced or repaired on them which we all know something will break doing that kind of work.

I went with side removal of tanks. I feel better knowing first hand the quality of fiberglass work that these guys do. I'll get a boat that her fuel system will be all new. No more worrying about a bilge dumping fuel all over Lake Pontchartrain. I have had nightmares over this...not any more.

To all potential boat/trawler buyers, please look closely at any boat with fiberglassed in iron fuel tanks! Be sure you have access to them without having to go through the tear down some of us have gone through.
Good for you. You made the right decision IMO.
Capt.Bill11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2015, 07:05 PM   #58
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
Ragin Cajun- I would love to see pictures as you progress.


1983 Present 42 Sundeck
Twin Lehman 135's
✌️
__________________
Steve Point Cadet/ Biloxi, Mississippi USA
*Present 42 twin 135 Lehmans
Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2015, 10:31 PM   #59
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragin cajun View Post
There was no access to the tanks with engines in place to cut out even the sides of those tanks to repair or place bladders inside. Repair cost would have been almost the same to pull engines if nothing needed to be replaced or repaired on them which we all know something will break doing that kind of work.

I went with side removal of tanks. I feel better knowing first hand the quality of fiberglass work that these guys do. I'll get a boat that her fuel system will be all new. No more worrying about a bilge dumping fuel all over Lake Pontchartrain. I have had nightmares over this...not any more.
Fair enough, but still worth considering fuel grade plastic tanks as the replacements, I would think..? They would be a cinch to install if you're cutting open the hull, can be shaped to match the side of the hull, so take up less width = ER space round engines better, and they'll never corrode, or be eaten away by synthetic/alternative fuels if these become mandated in the future. Just a thought.
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2015, 11:10 PM   #60
Guru
 
hmason's Avatar
 
City: Westport, CT
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Magic
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 46 Europa
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,890
Oxford Yacht Agency in MD has replaced many fuel tanks on GBs. They routinely cut the hull bottom and drop the tanks out. Wouldn't worry me in the least if I had faith in the yard and they had done the job before.
__________________

__________________
Howard
Magic, 1996 Grand Banks Europa
Westport, CT and Stuart, FL
hmason is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012