Foredeck cleat vs bollard for anchoring

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Yes, u do want to wrap that first turn very low at the post. Keep all bolts in shear. Of course, in the heat of battle, this is not always done. So, the design has to assume high torque loads will be supported by only two bolts. This is easier to accomplish with a cleat; there is no option for a high tie off.

I am a bit surprised there are no reasonably sized cleats that take 3/8 or even 7/16” bolts??
 
angus99 said:
That’s one clean anchor chain, Al! Did you use a toothbrush?
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That was a shot when new after installation but, TBH, it still looks much the same today, 10 years later. Our California Delta mud has very good hold for anchoring but it's not sticky on the chain, pulpit and anchor like Chesapeake mud. Often my pulpit only requires a light toweling to clean up the 'splash zone' from the chain. The anchor and chain usually comes up clean.

I just hose the pulpit and roller periodically then towel dry but I don't fret about keeping is spotless. It just happens that way...
 
I'll have to take another look for cleats, but pretty much everything I've seen in 10 or 12 inch takes 4x 5/16 bolts. But the earlier points about a cleat base compressing into wood are a concern, so I'd likely want a plate under the cleat, much like the post would have. I'll have to do a little more research today and think about sticking the cleat to a bolted down plate.
 
[QUOTEThe pulpit plus reinforced section of deck under it is just under 7 inches thick. Nobody makes a 5/16" bolt that long,][/QUOTE]

McMaster-Carr has bolts that long and longer. And in stainless.
 
Soo-Valley said:
5/16 stainless threaded rod came to mind
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Me too. Take it and and some SS nuts to fit to a welder and he can make you any length bolt you want by welding the nut to the threaded rod and simply grinding its top flat.
 
I'll check McMaster for bolts. For some reason I didn't think to check there before. A quick measurement (at the boat now) puts me at 6 inches plus backing plate, cleat base and any top plate I add.

That 6 inch thickness is 3 inches of pulpit and 3 inches of deck. Turns out the deck is thicker than I thought in that spot.

So if I find long enough bolts and use a cleat, do you recommend a plate under it to spread the load to the teak better?
 
RT Firefly said:
Greetings,
Mr. rs. Plate underneath? Absolutely!
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A plate under the deck is a definite. A post would have a base plate on top of the deck as well. You agree that adding a plate between a cleat and the top of the deck is worth it?
 
I wouldn't worry much about leverage against the bollard as when used properly the first turns should be wrapped a couple of times around the bollard at the base. The "bollard" you pictured is commonly known as a mooring post as that's it's primary role. The turns around the base of the post provide increased friction and less sharp of a bend in the line where it takes the most strain. 5/16 is probably fine as most of the strain against the bolts is in shear rather than tension. I would stay away from threaded rod as the full thread weakens the fastener, better would be unthreaded rod and a die to only thread the portion receiving the nuts. There are custom shops that will make any fastener you want as I assume you'd like a flat head at the deck for appearance and to seal the base plate as most have a countersink for a flat head.
 
Greetings,
Mr. rs.



200.webp
 
I think that maybe there is way too much over thinking going on here. We are not talking about anchoring a battleship here. With the bollard, or whatever term you want to call it, using 1/2” bolts and proper backing there isn’t going to be any problem with it staying attached to the boat. I would recommend a plate on top of the deck if you are concerned about the integrity of the deck. A large heavy duty backing plate on the underside of the deck that is buttered with thickened epoxy between the bottom of the deck and the backing plate. By using thickened epoxy between the deck and backing plate if there are any variations in the bottom of the deck the thickened epoxy will fill them and the backing plate will make full contact with the bottom of the deck and not just a few high spots. You do not want to seal the bottom with caulking though. Just use a proper bedding on the top, like butyl tape, but not the bottom so if any water does leak in it will drain out the bottom instead of being trapped inside the deck. Tighten the bolts up and you are good to go.
 
Comodave said:
I think that maybe there is way too much over thinking going on here. We are not talking about anchoring a battleship here. With the bollard, or whatever term you want to call it, using 1/2” bolts and proper backing there isn’t going to be any problem with it staying attached to the boat. I would recommend a plate on top of the deck if you are concerned about the integrity of the deck. A large heavy duty backing plate on the underside of the deck that is buttered with thickened epoxy between the bottom of the deck and the backing plate. By using thickened epoxy between the deck and backing plate if there are any variations in the bottom of the deck the thickened epoxy will fill them and the backing plate will make full contact with the bottom of the deck and not just a few high spots. You do not want to seal the bottom with caulking though. Just use a proper bedding on the top, like butyl tape, but not the bottom so if any water does leak in it will drain out the bottom instead of being trapped inside the deck. Tighten the bolts up and you are good to go.
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Epoxy is too brittle to seal out water, it's fine to strengthen the base and deck junction but a proper sealant would be needed in between. A backing plate is an obvious necessity as would be adequate bolts. It may not be a battleship but it would be a mistake to not take into account the shock loads the structure may be asked to resist when made fast to a dock or anchored in rough weather. I always try to err on the side of caution, I do less boat repair that way.
 
The backing plate with thickened epoxy holding it to the back of the deck is definitely going to be in there. With the bollard, it'll be 1/2" bolts with no need for flat heads or anything (there's no recesses for them), so standard hex bolts will be fine and easy to obtain. The base plate on it is big enough to avoid crushing the teak I think, so I'll probably just punch the easy button and go with that.

Stand by for pictures in a few weeks when I get this all together.
 
diver dave said:
Good plan. That, and the heated boathouse!
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Yeah, unfortunately no heat beyond what I can do in the cabin with a couple of space heaters. Boat is indoors, but it's unheated storage.

The good news is, for at least part of the work (strip and refinish the teak on the pulpit, prepping holes in the pulpit, fixing any bad wood on the pulpit, etc.) I get to work in the heated garage at home. Pulpit has to come off for access to do this all right anyway, so might as well take it home. Then I just have to do the holes in the deck, backing plate, etc. in the cold.
 
Fish53 said:
Epoxy is too brittle to seal out water, it's fine to strengthen the base and deck junction but a proper sealant would be needed in between. A backing plate is an obvious necessity as would be adequate bolts. It may not be a battleship but it would be a mistake to not take into account the shock loads the structure may be asked to resist when made fast to a dock or anchored in rough weather. I always try to err on the side of caution, I do less boat repair that way.
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Where did you get that I said to seal out water with epoxy??? I said to use butyl tape.
 
Comodave said:
Where did you get that I said to seal out water with epoxy??? I said to use butyl tape.
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Must have read it wrong, that happens when I can't find my glasses. Ignore that part and read the rest.
 
Where did you get that I said to seal out water with epoxy??? I said to use butyl tape.


Goop tape what ever does not do very well with high shock loads.


A pad of 1/8 or 1/16 rubber does better at sealing after repeated high loafs.


Works great under individual stanchions , or hard working cleats.
 
Actually butyl tape does very well on fittings that tend to move a bit. It will stretch 400% and still function. Look at Compass Marine web site to see his testing on butyl tape. It works well for bedding stanchions since it does stretch.
 
I've got some of the butyl tape Compass Marine sells ordered and on the way. That'll go under the windlass and the post. Pulpit is ready for removal, so I just have to enlist a helper or 2 and get it off the boat so the big work can begin.
 
rslifkin said:
I've got some of the butyl tape Compass Marine sells ordered and on the way. That'll go under the windlass and the post. Pulpit is ready for removal, so I just have to enlist a helper or 2 and get it off the boat so the big work can begin.
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That's the same stuff I used 10 years ago, Rob and it worked very well for 6 years. After the pulpit got damaged in an allision on SF Bay ... (not my fault, I swear!)...I had the yard rebuild it with the same but new components.

A good discussion of sealant options starts here on post #25(http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s42/whats-hatt-doing-my-pulpit-23115-2.html)

Butyl, Sika 291 and 3M 4000UV all have appropriate roles in sealant or adhesive applications. I used a combo of butyl and Sika 291 in the final rebuild after the incident.

Hope it helps your project.
 
Butyl works especially well when there is movement of the fitting being bedded since it stretches and gives a bit. Regular caulking will tend to break free when there is movement.
 
As previously noted, a lot of over-thinking going on here. One point I would make is that attaching windlass and sampson post to pulpit would require some significant bolting and back plating of not only the windlass and post, but to the pulpit itself. I've seen pulpits crack and get ripped off on moorings or anchored in storms. Definitely plan on using an anchoring snubber setup when anchored. Here's my setup. Anchor chain runs over roller. Roller is back plated, as is the windlass, but still allows leaverage that could cause damage under load. When I was on my mooring, I had 2 one inch polydyne pendants coming through the chocks and looped over the sampson post. When I anchor, I carry the load with a 2-line anchor snubber, hooked to chain, running through chocks and attached to cleats on the gunnel (out of picture). Even when anchored for short period in calm weather, I'll attach a snubber line with a rolling hitch on the chain, through the chock and lashed to the post. My rule while on a mooring or anchored out, never carry the load at the roller, pulpit, or windlass.
 

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The roller setup on my pulpit has a pretty large mounting surface to spread the load, although I am planning to assess that. The pulpit is 3" thick with a fiberglass shell (indented in the top middle for the teak) and lots of wood underneath for structure. Where the samson post will sit (on the portion of pulpit that's over the deck), the wood is the full thickness of the pulpit right down to the deck. So in effect, it'll mount through 6" of solid material (half pulpit, half deck). Given a good backing plate, that should be significantly stronger than my existing cleats and the pulpit will basically be acting as a load spreading plate on top of the deck.

The pulpit will be held in place with the existing 6 bolts, plus the 4 for the windlass and 4 for the samson post all terminating in a big backing plate. And the deck under the pulpit is 3 inches thick (surrounding deck is somewhere around 1 - 1.5 inches thick). So the only concern would be downward pull on the roller breaking the pulpit, as that's the only thing putting leverage on the pulpit (which shouldn't be an issue given adequate scope and sufficient reinforcement of the pulpit). If anything else is going to fail, it would be in the form of ripping the pulpit off the foredeck, which I think would be far harder to do than ripping out a cleat (as it's mounted to a thicker section of deck and with a far bigger backing plate and more and bigger hardware).

In heavy weather I could always run lines back to the deck cleats to share the load, but IMO, lines back there is a liability on this boat. The boat yaws more with the attachment point further back vs out on the roller. And if it yaws far enough, the lines chafing against the edge of the pulpit where it meets the hull becomes an issue because the cleats are not very far outboard from the pulpit.

I've attached a bottom-up view of the pulpit assembly to give a little more perspective on how it all goes together. If you look for the notch in the panel on the underside of the pulpit, that's where the roller axle sits. So it's not all that far out from the hull (about 15" from where the pulpit last contacts the deck). The aft-most pulpit mounting bolts are about 18" aft of where the pulpit last contacts the deck.
 

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Here is my bad news anchor story. Maybe something useful to learn here, otherwise just another LL for me.
Put down anchor on Sugar Wreck, up on the NW Bahamas bank. Exposed location, but intending just a lunch hook type duration. 15' of water depth, I had maybe 30' of chain out, then right to the windlass. No bridle.
I was snorkling around, a few more folks on the boat.

At some point, I noticed a wave arrived from a ship some distance away, and a short time later, the boat turned down wind. Oh, no. I race/swim to the boat, and see that the chain was dragging, without the benefit of the anchor. And, the windlass suffered a bent shaft. So, the swivel at the anchor broke, due to the heavy load during the pitch event. I recovered the 22lb delta, which was quite a feat without a lift bag. Turned out the anchor was slipped under a massive piece of the ship... Lucky it didn't take off the pulpit.
 
rslifkin said:
I've got some of the butyl tape Compass Marine sells ordered and on the way. That'll go under the windlass and the post. Pulpit is ready for removal, so I just have to enlist a helper or 2 and get it off the boat so the big work can begin.
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Can you post what you bought and show application. I will be resetting stanchions and this was a great tip. when I search I find different sizes width and thickness 1/8, 1/4.
The 2-4 inch wide one can be trimmed nicely under stanchion feet.
 
I too like the butyl tape sold by Compass Marine. I just put some on the bottom of the stanchion and then bolt it down. It takes a couple of days to completely bolt it down as the butyl is very thick and takes time to squeeze out. Usually 3 days.
 
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