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Old 04-03-2015, 06:17 PM   #21
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Not to hijack the thread, but what would you guys consider high hours on a Lehman 125hp engine? I'm about to look at a boat with 5200 hrs - initial online look seems to be well maintained - clean ER
5200 is not at all high hours on a well maintained Lehman.
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Old 04-03-2015, 06:52 PM   #22
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FoxTrotCharlie---- A little background info on the FL120 for you....

The FL120 is based on the Ford of England Dorset diesel which was designed in the late 1950s to be a truck diesel. It proved to be a complete failure as a truck engine for several reasons and Ford was on the brink of discontinuing the engine when someone suggested trying it in an industrial application like a crane or pump or generator. At constant, medium rpm (1500-1800) and constant, medium load it proved to be a very good, very reliable engine.

So Ford of England gave it a new lease on life as an inductrial/agricultural engine. In fact, some people in the UK still refer to this engine as the "Combine Engine."

The characteristics that made it a good industrial/agricultural engine made it ideal for marine use, and a number of companies around the world developed and sold marinzation kits for the Dorset diesel. One of these was Lehman in New Jersey, and they eventually became the most prolific and best known marinzer of Ford of England diesels.

So the base engines in the boat you're looking at were make in England in Ford's engine plant in Dorset (hence the name of the engine). The engines were then sold and shipped to Lehman in New Jersey who fitted their marinzation kit to the engines and then sold them to the boat manufacturer.

Lehman also sold their marinzation kits separately. For example in the early 1970s American Marine (the creator of the Grand Banks line of boats) thought they could save money by buying the Dorset engine direct from Ford, the marinzation kit direct from Lehman, and then mating the kit to the engine on the factory floor next to the boat it was going into. They did this for a few years and then realized it was a false economy and went back to buying the already-marinzed engines directly from Lehman.

There is no difference between an FL120 with the Lehman kit installed by American Marine and an FL120 with the Lehman kit installed by Lehman except in the colors of the engines. Lehman painted all their engines red at the factory. American Diesel painted the engines they marinized with the Lehman kit in Singapore one of two colors: a very nice semi-metallic olive green or a rather annoying (in my opinon) yellow-gold.

The FL120s in our boat had the Lehman kits put on in Singapore, so the enngines were painted the olive green. Somewhere along the line a previous owner repainted them Alpine Green (aka Detroit Green) which in my opinon is a terrific color for an engine. We had the engines in our other cruising boat painted this color before they were installed, and when I get around to overhauling the engine in my 1973 Land Rover I'm going to paint the engine that same green.

The photo below is what an FL120 as marinized with the Lehman kit by American Marine in Singapore looks like in a single-engine Grand Banks.
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Old 04-04-2015, 12:49 PM   #23
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Just to add a bit more background to Marin's post above.
The Ford diesel was in fact a success here in the UK but the Ford truck itself was a dying breed and has long since disappeared, some of the range was transferred to Iveco light trucks.
The engine fell into a bracket along with DAF, Leyland, Gardner, Cummins for supplying engines for 24 to 28 ton trucks, as the truck weights went up to 38 and now 46 tonnes in the UK the engines were obviously not powerful enough. the trucks now use up to 600 hp and those engines are also marinized, Volvo being one and the Scania in marine version goes up to 800 hp..
The Dorset engine was found to be a very good reliable engine and was consequently fitted to agricultural, plant, gensets etc and made a good marine diesel because of it's durability, in fact some 'blown' and intercooled and used as racing engines in power boats by Mike Bellamy of Lancing Marine who is a well known marinizer in the UK.
All marinizing parts are still freely available and because it has replaceable 'wet' liners it's life is as long as yours if well serviced.
The engines are still made in prolific quantities in Turkey and new ones are still freely available.
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Old 04-04-2015, 01:46 PM   #24
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According to the former Ford of England engineer who told me the history of the Dorset engine during one of our visits to the UK, the Dorset was a disaster as a truck engine from day one. It's weak design could not stand up to the rigors of on-road driving with its constantly changing rpm and load. The in-line injection pump is a particular weak spot, he said, under this kind of service and needed constant overhaul or changeout. He didn't comment on the rotary injection pump that was sometimes fitted to this engine.

His comments were confirmed and reinforced by another aquaintence in the UK who for decades owned a large shop that specialized in the servicing, repair, and overhaul of Ford of England engines. He added that if the Dorset overheats, which it frequently did in truck service, the head gasket would immediately blow and the head would almost always warp.

The engine, he said, proved to be much more reliable in constant speed, relatively low and constant load service such as one finds in industrial and agricultural (and eventually marine) service.

Both of these people, particularly the retired Ford engineer, had relatively low opinions of the Dorset diesel. The Dover diesel (base engine for the FL135, is a different story, they said, as it remedied some of the fundamental problems with the Dorset.

While the FL120 has earned an impressive reputation for reliability in marine service, this service makes little demand on the engine's design or strength.

Knowing what we have learned about this engine from people with a long history of being directly involved with it, we would not buy a boat with these engines were we in the market for a used cruiser today. They have several operational characteristics we have learned to dislike, but it's not so much that the FL120 is a bad engine in marine service as it is there are so many superior engines in marine service.
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Old 04-04-2015, 10:03 PM   #25
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Finally stuck a camera in the barrel of the oil cooler I replaced. Ya think it was a good idea? Three more to go. If you haven't used your boat recently, you might want to cruise your coolers to a radiator shop.





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Old 04-04-2015, 11:38 PM   #26
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Boil it out, pressure test it and save it as a spare. My guess is it's still good.
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Old 04-05-2015, 03:05 AM   #27
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Finally stuck a camera in the barrel of the oil cooler I replaced. Ya think it was a good idea? Three more to go. If you haven't used your boat recently, you might want to cruise your coolers to a radiator shop.
Yuk. How many hours and years went into making those blockages?
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Old 04-10-2015, 10:31 AM   #28
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I did engine checks yesterday after running all day and found water in the drip pan (was 1/4 full of salt water). The transmission cooler had a pin hole leak on the salt water side. Fortunately I had another cooler and the leak was not on the exchange side. It had 1322 hours on it and less than 4 years old and yes it was cupro-nickel.


Edit: Cooler was just under 5 years old. The inside looked perfect. We had a corrosion analysis down 2 years ago and everything looked good. So who knows?
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Old 04-10-2015, 10:38 AM   #29
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Greetings,
Mr. LM. A dab of soft solder and I'd say she's good to go. Spare at the very least...
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Old 04-10-2015, 10:51 AM   #30
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RTF: That was the plan if I didn't have the spare = the one I took off at the last change.


What I'm going to do when we get back is buy 2, install one then the other new one goes into the spare locker. When it's time to rotate or I need a replacement, I'm only doing it once with new.
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Old 04-10-2015, 01:44 PM   #31
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With the new ones do as Marin mentioned. Sand the area on the coolers were the mounting strap touches the coolers to bare metal, as well as cleaning off the insides of the cooler mounts. So they all make good electrical contact.

What exactly did your "corrosion analysis" entail?
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Old 04-10-2015, 01:49 PM   #32
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The oil cooler from the port engine and the tranny cooler from the starboard engine looked better than the first one. I still have to crawl over the starboard engine and replace the oil cooler. Not looking forward to that bit of gymnastics. After that it's a haulout to replace the cutlass bearings, fix some through hull valves and connect some more plumbing. Then finally, a year later, we'll get to take her out and play with her!
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Old 04-10-2015, 01:58 PM   #33
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Marin,

Thank you for the history of FL 120. We currently have the FL SP 135 and have never had a serious issue with the base engine. I have been told that the FL 120 has a potential cooling issue with number six hole and injector pump also a potential problem. It is my understanding the the SP 135 has corrected those potential problems.
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Old 04-10-2015, 02:50 PM   #34
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...What exactly did your "corrosion analysis" entail?
We had a corrosion survey done by electrical tech who used a silver/silver-chloride electrode. We wanted to see if our bonding system was in good order and that we didn't have any stray current in AC or DC systems. We checked every breaker (AC/DC), bonding point plus all the neutrals, grounds and shore power.

The results showed that the bonding system and AC/DC systems were fine and we were within the recommended range of -550 to -1100 millivolt. We tested -635 millivolts. Since at the time we were in brackish water, the tech suggested we get a little more negative so we switch to aluminum anodes. After the change we retested and the reading was -1028. The tech charged for the 1 hour it took him with me flipping switches and breakers.
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Old 04-10-2015, 03:04 PM   #35
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Marin,

Thank you for the history of FL 120. We currently have the FL SP 135 and have never had a serious issue with the base engine. I have been told that the FL 120 has a potential cooling issue with number six hole and injector pump also a potential problem. It is my understanding the the SP 135 has corrected those potential problems.
Ken
I have had zero experience with the FL135 and don't know anyone personally who has a boat with that engine. So other than knowing the name of the base engine and that its injector pump uses oil circulated through from the engine as opposed to a self-contained sump, I am basically clueless about it.

The FL120 can have a cooling issue with the number six cylinder which is one of the several reasons to operate it relatively conservatively (1500-1800 rpm) to help ensure that the last cylinder doesn't overheat.
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Old 04-10-2015, 05:54 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Old deckhand View Post
Marin,

Thank you for the history of FL 120. We currently have the FL SP 135 and have never had a serious issue with the base engine. I have been told that the FL 120 has a potential cooling issue with number six hole and injector pump also a potential problem. It is my understanding the the SP 135 has corrected those potential problems.
Ken
There are a number of "updates" on the 135's vs the 120's. Injector pump oil circulated from the engine oil, improved head bolt and head gasket design, improved water pump shaft design, stainless steel exhaust water injection elbow, automatic closed cooling air bleed setup to name some. I have 2 with about 4800 hrs on them and they run extremely well.

Ken
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Old 04-10-2015, 05:58 PM   #37
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There are a number of "updates" on the 135's vs the 120's. Injector pump oil circulated from the engine oil, improved head bolt and head gasket design, improved water pump shaft design, stainless steel exhaust water injection elbow, automatic closed cooling air bleed setup to name some. I have 2 with about 4800 hrs on them and they run extremely well.

Ken
Ken,
Thank you,
Ken
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Old 04-10-2015, 08:08 PM   #38
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I think the FL120 gets blocked around no.6. One of mine is silted up, about to do a flush. AD says there is a block drain in the vicinity
Fortunately oil coolers are not too pricey,must be a non custom generic.
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Old 04-11-2015, 11:37 AM   #39
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While I agree coolers should be changed before they go bad, I've lost track of how many coolers on Lehman's I've seen go bad and I don't recall ever seeing one trash an engine or tranny.

So it's not automatically the end of the world if one goes bad.


When I was in Miami, I spoke to an expert in marine transmissions, he reiterated what Capt Bill said above.

He really liked the BW Velvet Drive transmission and said it's almost bullet proof.
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Old 04-13-2015, 07:46 AM   #40
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I think my BW was close to being trashed due to water getting into the reverse cylinder. After the first year I owned the boat I pulled the tranny to do a "precautionary" rebuild. The rev cyl had rust in it and was just starting to self destruct.
I caught it just in time.
I am assuming water got in via the heat exchanger sometime under the previous owner (I put a new one on before I ever ran the boat).
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