Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-22-2014, 07:15 AM   #1
Guru
 
Rogerh's Avatar
 
City: Niceville, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: At Last
Vessel Model: 1990 Jefferson 52 Marquessa
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 665
filling rotted core

I have been working on replacing my backer plate on my windlass. When I removed the windlass I found that the core of my deck in one section at the windlass was rotted. I removed the rotted core from edge of one section of the 5.5 " inch opening for the windlass. It is a 1/2 inch core. I removed about 2 to 3 inches back to get to good wood. It is a plywood core. Now I need to fill the void. I have used West Six-ten in the past and love the stuff. No muss, no fuss but expensive. But in my book the fuss is worth the cost. I will need to inject what I use into the void to get good coverage and the nozzle on six-ten is good for that. My question is should I use six-ten or is there something else that would be more appropriate. I have done some epoxy work before but I am far from experienced. Thanks for your inputs.
__________________
Advertisement

Rogerh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 10:12 AM   #2
Guru
 
Brooksie's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod, MA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Island Seeker
Vessel Model: Willard 36 Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 954
I have always used glass (not phenolic) micro-balloons and epoxy resin w/ slow hardener for this and with very good results. You can control the viscosity, rather than buying a fixed product. I have used syringes, empty caulking tubes, and even a grease gun to inject holes usually putting some straight resin in first and pushing it along with the thickened mixture.
__________________

Brooksie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 10:18 AM   #3
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,994
Greetings,
Mr. R. Can't help you with exactly what epoxy to use but the first thing that springs to mind is why fill all the void with epoxy? Could one not shape a piece of plywood or several pieces to the appropriate size and bed the "insert" in epoxy? Seems it might have better compressive strength than epoxy alone particularly if the "patch" has a bolt passing through it.
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 11:36 AM   #4
Guru
 
Carolena's Avatar
 
City: DC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carolena II
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 32/34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 605
I've always used West epoxy, slow cure, thickened with colodial silica for this type of project. Inserted as described above. That said, while a bit more expensive, I don't see why the 6-10 wouldn't work.
Carolena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 11:41 AM   #5
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,178
I concur with RTF as cored areas do tend to flex and handle weight and compression differently than solid epoxy. In smaller areas, yes, but in larger areas I would want the deck to be of "similar" flex characteristics. The area you are proposing would probably be my max area to fill with epoxy, but for any thru-bolts, I'd want to do some similar core. Just my thinking.
__________________
Larry

"I'd rather be happy than dignified".
healhustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 11:52 AM   #6
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
I concur with RTF as cored areas do tend to flex and handle weight and compression differently than solid epoxy...
I agree. Also, one of the issues in filling with straight epoxy is the exothermic reaction. In confined spaces or filling large areas you shouldn't fill it all at once, use multiple steps/layers. It's hard to control the heat and in some cases you'll get thermal degradation if you flood to large an area with epoxy.
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 12:23 PM   #7
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,882
Second RTF. Build up the underside with stacked laminated plywood and epoxy, then cover with a layer of glass/epoxy to seal. Injecting glue/filler/whatever does not provide strength, and a windlass can pull hard.
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 12:27 PM   #8
Guru
 
HiDHo's Avatar
 
City: Scottsboro, Al.
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hi-D-Ho
Vessel Model: 1987 Krogen Manatee
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 734
I ran into this same problem installing our windlass but the bad coring area was much larger.
Check out uscomposites.com they sell a small kit that will fill one cubic foot area in the 4 lb density for $22.50 plus shipping.
Bill
HiDHo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 02:52 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
City: Seattle
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Poach
Vessel Model: Sabreline Trawler
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Second RTF. Build up the underside with stacked laminated plywood and epoxy, then cover with a layer of glass/epoxy to seal. Injecting glue/filler/whatever does not provide strength, and a windlass can pull hard.
I agree. You need both strength and flex because of the significant strain the bow pulpit places on the attach points. Rebuilding with properly laminated and sealed plywood is the way to go. You might also look at whether the manner in which the bow pulpit is attached is allowing the area to 'work' over time as the anchor is employed, contributing to the cause of your original problem. Could you re-engineer it a bit to reduce strain? If you haven't alredy gotten into the habit of using an anchor bridle, you might consider it. It reduces the strain on the bow pulpit when at anchor.
Poach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 07:57 PM   #10
Hospitality Officer
 
Andy G's Avatar
 
City: Pittwater
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Sarawana
Vessel Model: IG 36 Quad Cabin
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,557
FWIW, I did something similar, though on a larger scale

In addition to what's been talked about above I had a larger backing plate made up to ensure some of the load was distributed to the original core ,not just the new work.

Disclaimer: I Can't say that it was based on any specific knowledge or expertise in this area, it just seemed a logical thing to do.
Andy G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 08:29 PM   #11
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogerh View Post
I have been working on replacing my backer plate on my windlass. When I removed the windlass I found that the core of my deck in one section at the windlass was rotted. I removed the rotted core from edge of one section of the 5.5 " inch opening for the windlass. It is a 1/2 inch core. I removed about 2 to 3 inches back to get to good wood. It is a plywood core. Now I need to fill the void. I have used West Six-ten in the past and love the stuff. No muss, no fuss but expensive. But in my book the fuss is worth the cost. I will need to inject what I use into the void to get good coverage and the nozzle on six-ten is good for that. My question is should I use six-ten or is there something else that would be more appropriate. I have done some epoxy work before but I am far from experienced. Thanks for your inputs.
I guess I have a contrary opinion, but you asked. I would definitely use epoxy, thickened with whatever you like although I prefer wood dust. I don't think that a flexing deck is really what you are looking for when mounting a windlass, which is what the backing plate is all about. So stabilizing the deck above the backing plate is hardly going to diminish flex, since the backing plate is supposed to eliminate that anyway. The caution on overheating is well made, but in my experience, a thin layer like you are talking about is not enough to cause a problem. I doubt you would successfully be able to do this in stages, so if I understand the situation correctly, here is what I would do. First, drill 1/4" pilot holes from the top down into the void at the outer edge of the void and about 1/2" from the cut edge. I would make sure it was bone dry, then mix up epoxy and thin it with MEK until it was the thickness of paint thinner and squirt this into your pilot holes first. This will hopefully saturate any rot you missed. The next day, tape off the cut edge and inject thickened epoxy into the outer holes until it starts to come out the inner holes. The thickening should be so that the material will slump to 1/8" or so on its own.

Hope that helps.
__________________
Delfin
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handy
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 09:14 PM   #12
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,861
Holy mackerel guys...unless I missed something the area we are talking about is fill pure and simple...flex and etc?????? A couple inches to be made up?????

Geez...fill it with epoxy and/or mix it with bits of wood filler or whatever....just make the new holes through it go through something that won't absorb moisture again.....

Of course I am talking filler...if the top/bottom structure is violated...then some structural rebuilding must be thought out.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2014, 10:48 PM   #13
db2
Veteran Member
 
City: San Diego
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Californian 42 LRC; Viking 43 Double Cabin
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 35
I agree that a wood/epoxy filler is easy, effective, and cheap. For the ply core consider strips of luan ply (approx 1/8"). For your 1/2" thickness about 4-5 strips bedded in epoxy will be killer strong.
db2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 01:10 PM   #14
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,603
filling rotted core

It seems to me that given the strains imposed by the windlass on this area of the deck, I would consult with a shipwright. That's what I would do if I were in your shoes. I agree with RTF, and others. I would cut back the top deck, expose the plywood underneath replace with plywood and then do some FRP on top. I'm guessing that's what my shipwright would suggest and do for me.

I've got a guy who has done some work for me in the past and I work with him as he does the job. I've learned so much from him on my projects and the projects go so much faster with someone like that.

On my boat, the PO installed a new beafy windlass and used epoxy to "fill" the original holes where the anchor chain drops into the chain locker. There is a fine crack revealed where these are located. This was identified as an issue on survey last year on purchase. We (shipwright and I) will grind that out to see what is revealed underneath and then re glass the area properly. That's the plan. Right now there is no evidence that water is intruding into the core but we will learn more when we open things up.
JDCAVE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 04:56 PM   #15
Guru
 
Rogerh's Avatar
 
City: Niceville, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: At Last
Vessel Model: 1990 Jefferson 52 Marquessa
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 665
Windlass job done!

Thanks to all of you for your comments and suggestions! I have completed our windlass job. After getting into it I found that I only had about 2 inches of bad core around the opening for the windlass. I pumped six-ten thickened epoxy into the voids, redrilled the mounting holes which were filled with the thickened epoxy, made sure core was solid all the way around and a layer of epoxy at the large openeing for the windlass. Then I used a 12 inch by 12 inch by 3/4 inch for the backer board. Man that stuff is fun to work with. Then I installed the Solenoid and switches so that I have up and down control both at the flybridge helm and at the foredeck. Before I just had up control only at the foredeck. Finally I installed a new bow roller which was a pain to find. Thanks to Hop Carr we were able to get one. Hopefully you can see the photos that I have attached.
Thanks again to all for all the help!
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMAG0625.jpg
Views:	88
Size:	59.4 KB
ID:	29532

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMAG0626.jpg
Views:	82
Size:	60.1 KB
ID:	29533
Rogerh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 05:08 PM   #16
Guru
 
Carolena's Avatar
 
City: DC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carolena II
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 32/34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 605
Great job! And thanks for sharing the result. Is that G10 for the backer? If so, good choice. That stuff makes great backing plates, but it will eat up saw blades like no tomorrow.
Carolena is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 05:14 PM   #17
Guru
 
Rogerh's Avatar
 
City: Niceville, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: At Last
Vessel Model: 1990 Jefferson 52 Marquessa
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 665
yes the G10 was the backer. I had to drill a 5.5 inch hole in it. It sure ate up the blade. But the stuff is incrdible strong and will not rot. Glad it is done and it turned out well.
Rogerh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 05:47 PM   #18
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,994
Greetings,
Mr. R. Atta boy!
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 05:59 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
knotheadcharters's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville, FL
Vessel Name: Amar la Vida
Vessel Model: 1989 Carver Californian 48' MY
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 327
Excuse my ignorance, but what is G10? I may be doing the same here shortly and I am vastly inexperienced with fiberglass and epoxy work.

Thanks to google it looks as if I have my answer.
www.polymerplastics.com/composite_g10.shtml
knotheadcharters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2014, 06:05 PM   #20
Guru
 
Rogerh's Avatar
 
City: Niceville, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: At Last
Vessel Model: 1990 Jefferson 52 Marquessa
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 665
It is an extremely strong fiberglass like material. From one of the sites selling it... "is a high-pressure thermoset plastic laminate consisting of multiple layers of woven fiberglass mesh cloth impregnated with an epoxy resin". I can tell you this it is very hard and is very very strong. 3/4 inch is unbelievable. Recommended to use carbide blades and drill bits.
__________________

Rogerh is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012