epoxy+varnish over old rough teak?

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timb

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marine trader 38 dc
I saw a video from boat works today where he epoxied some wood and varnished over it .I have bought the materials. but I'm wondering if anyone else has tried it .
I have sanded all I care to on the mast and boom they are still rather white .will this improve when I put the coating on?
I also brought home the bow raised floor panels. they feel weak but are not broken . wood is warn down. will epoxy stiffen them up? they look like they will be impossible to sand in the small square holes . any suggestions would be appreciated .
I also have the old dried out fly bridge steps here also is this approach going to make the super slick to stand on.

thanks
Tim
 
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"Where he epoxied some wood and varnished over"


:confused:Forgive me, I would have thought just the reverse. Several coats of varnish and then the epoxy over that.:ermm:

Al-Ketchikan
 
No the epoxy will break down from UV without varnish over it. I sanded my swim platform and used a 1/2” belt sander in the gaps. Worked very well but you have to be careful as it will eat the wood quickly if you are not careful. A coating of epoxy will not strengthen the wood without glass.
 
It’s not uncommon to varnish over epoxy. Epoxy bonds well with the wood but doesn’t have very good UV resistance. The varnish actually protects the epoxy.
This link should take you to a photo of a canoe I helped build. It was covered with light fiberglass cloth and epoxy. We then put varnish over everything.
https://jmlynn.smugmug.com/Boats/Cedrus-Marie/i-b5D2tcP

Epoxy resin alone willl not make your floor panels stronger.
 
"Where he epoxied some wood and varnished over"


:confused:Forgive me, I would have thought just the reverse. Several coats of varnish and then the epoxy over that.:ermm:

Al-Ketchikan

Okay, I found the video:
Novel approach. Would like to have been introduced to this process years ago as I have had and yet do, owned wood boats with tons of varnish surface. Matter of fact, this fall completely redid a Norwegian Rana Skiff that is of pine and all varnish inside/outside. I applied 12 coats of gloss spar varnish. As expected, the finish is beautiful to behold, however, the application as shown in the video holds merit in terms of a really good waterproof seal on the pine prior to the varnish, not being as water resistant.
This site is a real find and thank you for that for sure. I have book marked it for all future subjects on fiberglassing repairs and such.

Al-Ketchikan
 
I did not watch the video but on the GB site, ages ago, the best solution to varnish teak was to first use CPES, or clear penetrating epoxy sealer then varnishing over it. Some said to not let the cpes completely dry (it uses a catalyst) and put the first coat of varnish on. You realize that you need at least 6 coats of varnish? Anyway, the more the merrier and plan to put one coat on a year and you will rarely if ever have to strip it.

It’s water penetration or uv that breaks down varnish. The cpes solves the water part and the uv is solved by annual coats with light preparation such as a scotchbrite pad. I really liked Le Tonkinoise varnish, it has no solvents but varnish is like anchors...
 
I did just that on most of the interior teak parts of a rebuild I did a number of years ago. Used semi-gloss varnish. Had no issues.
 

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I would agree that a penetrating epoxy would be a better base. With regular epoxy if you ever have to strip it you will curse the day that you put it on.
 
There is an extensive thread I read on woodenboat forum (sorry no link) regarding using varnish over epoxy. Opinion are mixed and some people mentioned that there is very little value to epoxy the wood before varnishing as applying multiple coat of varnish would have the same protective effect.

L
 
FYI: A friend used epoxy on his cap rails and exterior teak then finished with Cetol Light. The finish failed within a year including the epoxy. He talked to the epoxy manufacturer, MAS, “Our epoxy is not comparable with Cetol”.
 
Thanks everyone for your input. I guess I should have asked before I bought the 207 hardener .a may try to put some material on the bottom of the floor grate . I bought two quarts of pedit varnish .I guess that won't make it far. Is there anything wrong with the 1015 and 2015 varnish. I was hoping for a long lasting solution for the mast because it looks like it will be a pain to work on while it's up. Thanks again for the suggestions .I don't have a clue what I am doing.
 
Epoxy with varnish over has been my standard way for many years. Epoxy alone will degrade from UV light, but with a varnish with UV blockers works fine. For raised floor panels, that I call deck grates, I seal the wood with diluted epoxy. Then spray paint the bottom and square insides red. Resand any top over spray, seal, then 2 coats of West Systems Epoxy with 207 Special Clear hardener. To make a sealing epoxy, I use West 2333N Epoxy Reducer, a little goes a long way.
It makes a nice looking deck grate. The varnish is several coats, but will give the deep look of a dozen coats when over 2 coats of epoxy.
I've seen a set of directions at either Gougeon Brothers, Inc. or https://www.westsystem.com/ some years ago.
I get my WS resin at Discount Marine Supplies offers quality boating supplies & marine supplies for boaters and sailboat owners.. Currently $80/gallon.
 
Lepke, I’ll bet that’s gorgeous! I used to just soak my grates in Seafin or similar but I’ll bet yours is much nicer. Thanks for sharing.
 
With west system 105 resin + 207 hardener, thin to milk consistency with MEK solvent. This makes the CPES referred to above. 1 or 2 coats to saturate the wood, then let it dry for a week. The epoxy will out gas for that long, those fumes need to be gone before overcoating with 6 or so coats of UV protecting varnish. However, if those are grates I see on the picture that you walk on, I'd sand the wood bright and only apply Cetol. Much easier to keep looking good.
 
thanks for the new responses I have some unopened mek (I was suppose to re glue a dingy 5 years ago) ,I don't have the west system reducer but don't mind getting it. here is a link to the listing of my boat before I bought it .you can see how bad the wood is . the grates are from the pulpit area. it was the most of a project boat that the wife would sleep on.
Windswept Yacht Sales (Sarasota, FL)
 
thanks for the new responses I have some unopened mek (I was suppose to re glue a dingy 5 years ago) ,I don't have the west system reducer but don't mind getting it. here is a link to the listing of my boat before I bought it .you can see how bad the wood is . the grates are from the pulpit area. it was the most of a project boat that the wife would sleep on.
Windswept Yacht Sales (Sarasota, FL)

I've never used West reducer, but suspect it would be MEK by another chemical name. If the grates on horizontal, just sand them and give them three coats of Cetol. Annual recoating will keep them looking nice. Epoxy with varnish over is going to give you maximum longevity of the varnish for other bright areas.

One more thing - MEK dissolves foam brushes, so use a bristle brush for application of the thinned epoxy. Throw aways are best even though they shed bristles like crazy.
 
I've done a lot of this varnish-over-epoxy. Everything from a whole Flying Dutchman sailboat, to tillers, to a sailboat sole, to many countertops, a laundry room floor, shower door including frame and sill.

Plusses include: the epoxy is very low permeability, thus seals the wood, and the varnish has a great primer. You can get a perfectly flat grain-free appearance.

Negatives include:
1. Corners tend to be more thinly coated and more prone to UV and physical damage. And the coating is of course harder to renew since you have to remove the varnish at the repair and repair the epoxy before revarnishing.
2. Dings and damage out in the 'field' have the same repair issue as above.
3. This 'epoxy seals' business only works if the wood is 'encapsulated'. If moisture can get under the epoxy, it will lift just as badly. Impermeable surface treatments can only survive if the the wood is completely coated. That's supposed to be the plus of Cetol and similar coatings.
 
No the epoxy will break down from UV without varnish over it. I sanded my swim platform and used a 1/2” belt sander in the gaps. Worked very well but you have to be careful as it will eat the wood quickly if you are not careful. A coating of epoxy will not strengthen the wood without glass.

comodave ,
I have a 1/2 belt sander it takes 1/2 x12 belts it's like new .I just dug it out and tried it .it breaks the belt (at the seam) every time I run it .so I ether have too much air pressure of the belts are so old the splices are going bad. i'm guessing it has been laying around for 6 years. where did you buy your belts from ? what grit ?and do you remember the air pressure you used .

thanks everyone I'm really confused now but I have time to think and sand because I can't keep my garage warm enough to do any coatings.
 
comodave ,
I have a 1/2 belt sander it takes 1/2 x12 belts it's like new .I just dug it out and tried it .it breaks the belt (at the seam) every time I run it .so I ether have too much air pressure of the belts are so old the splices are going bad. i'm guessing it has been laying around for 6 years...

Try installing the belts the opisite way. You need to have the belt going in the direction so that it won’t peel the seam. Don’t ask me how I know. :)
 
I have sanded all I care to on the mast and boom they are still rather white .will this improve when I put the coating on?

I also have the old dried out fly bridge steps here also is this approach going to make the super slick to stand on.

thanks
Tim


No and Yes.

No the white will not go away. After looking at the photo of the grid I think what you are referring to as white is actually the normal greying of teak that has been left to age naturally. Works sometime but with dirty air it often just looks dirty. Or were they actually painted white??

Now on to my point. If you want the grey gone then use a "Teak Cleaner" and follow the instructions. It is an acid and needs to done with some care. Then use the neutralizer and wash and wash. Let dry for a day or two. Teak does not absorb water the way a lot of woods do but any gaps in the joints will hold some and if not gone will cause trouble.

THe colour of the teak will come back in the grate holes. Some sanding will be needed by wrapping a piece of paper around a tongue depressor or similar stick using a relatively coarse paper, suggest 120 grit. On the flat,very visible surfaces I use 220 grit. Don't go nuts though. The finish will slowly fill in the remaining roughness where the cleaner and the greying has removed some of the softer wood.




Varnish on steps is a recipe for a slip and a fall. Use a grit or walnut shells or something to provide a grip. Generally steps should not be varnished at all.
You could also install a self adhesive grit covered tape , available at most marine stores. But what ever is done ensure there is some thing for a firm grip or someone is going to pay a heavy price. Smooth varnish is slippery, wet smooth varnish is deadly.

I am not a fan of the epoxy for this application. I did use it and it changed the wood colour enough I was not happy. Scraped it off but not deep enough as I did not want to take off that much wood. I learned to think it is just another teak colour variation. I will admit most people have no idea, they think is's great.
But I know.

Lots of people do use it and successfully so choose carefully. But I will add that the buildup of varnish must be done and kept up to protect the epoxy or you will be scraping at least some of it. I would venture at least 8 coats and then 2 or three each year. Sun and weather will degrade at least one or two varnish layers.

I have also seen a couple of failures, bubbling, likely due to the wood not being COMPLETELY DRY. It was mahogany and mahogany will absorb some water the way teak will not. But still it was a failure and a heck of a lot of work to rectify. It made me leery so I don't use epoxy, just many coats of good spar varnish.


Which ever way you go a thorough wipe down with some thing like acetone or similar must be done. Find out from the epoxy and varnish mfgr. what they recommend.
 
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be careful belt sanders are nasty tools, very effective ans sometimes too much. I would advise to practice before going on.

L
 
I got my small belt sander and belts from Amazon. It is electric not air driven. I think the grit is 80.
 
Wood belongs on the interior. :hide:
 
For my knowledge what is the benefit of varnish over epoxy vs 7 coats (or whatever the number) of varnish? What does epoxy bringing?

L
 
Th epoxy is said to provide a more stable surface for the varnish both hardening and sealing the wood to a higher degree than just the varnish.

I going to toss this back to an older contributor, Marin. He used the epoxy and then a urethane base varnish over top. He swore the urethane over was better than the spar varnish. His findings were that the urethane lasted two years so he and his wife could work a rotating schedule that enabled him to do less each year yet keep a good finish.

Look up his old posts as he stopped posting 2 or maybe 3 years ago. He posted several time about the epoxy/varnish/ urethane. Read some of them.
 
The belt sander Commodave is referring to is much different from the typical 3 or 4" wide belt sanders.
They are specialty tools often use in fine metalworking, body work and so on. Available in both electric and air . I have one air powered. Good tools for the application but correct , care must be used. I think I would work with a finer grit first untill I got a feel for the machine in a particular application. It could gouge. But a nice tool.
 
comodave ,
I have a 1/2 belt sander it takes 1/2 x12 belts it's like new .I just dug it out and tried it .it breaks the belt (at the seam) every time I run it .so I ether have too much air pressure of the belts are so old the splices are going bad. i'm guessing it has been laying around for 6 years. where did you buy your belts from ? what grit ?and do you remember the air pressure you used .

thanks everyone I'm really confused now but I have time to think and sand because I can't keep my garage warm enough to do any coatings.

I’ve got a bunch of old 2” belts. They always break at the seam as soon as I turn on the machine. I’ve researched reglueing them and tried a bunch of different ways. None work as well as a fresh belt.

I think this is where I ordered new ones from.
https://www.empireabrasives.com/sanding-belts/
 
I have not used the 1/2” belt sander a lot. I bought it specifically to sand the slots on the swim platform on a pervious boat. I did the entire swim platform with one belt. I used it recently to modify a plastic template for my new portholes that the manufacturer made incorrectly 2 times. I have not broken any belts with the belt sander so far. I do install the belts in the correct run direction. It is a unique tool for some odd ball jobs, but it was cheap. Also, If you ask my wife, I have never met a tool that I didn’t want...
 
I know that my sanding belts will not last long stored in my garage. Florida heat, humidity, kills the glue in 18 months or so. Lost a bunch of better quality belts before I learned my lesson.
 
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