Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-26-2010, 07:15 PM   #1
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
Epoxy Questions

I am finishing a teak project where the microwave opening needed to be enlarged. I had my trim teak provided by a marine woodworking shop in Kemah and was told to use West System for strength when I put my mitered corners together.*I did some reading on the advantages of epoxy and see the value of being able to thicken the mix depending on your need.
Short of time and money this weekend- this is what I did. I had a 2 part Ace epoxy mix I had recently purchased for a project and did not use. I would mix up a batch and then add teak sawdust slowly and thicken it up. Wiped some on, put pieces together, screwed together, wiped excess with Acetone, let harden and sand. Wonderful stuff!! I am sure I read somewhere about adding the sawdust.
So what other applications are there on a boat for epoxy?
__________________
Advertisement

Forkliftt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2010, 08:23 PM   #2
Guru
 
Fotoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 621
RE: Epoxy Questions

Quote:
Forkliftt wrote:

So what other applications are there on a boat for epoxy?
Just about anything you can imagine. Its 100% waterthight properties make it great for under water use, repairs, building, etc. But you can also do a lot of projects with regular and much cheaper polyester resin.

*
__________________

Fotoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2010, 08:34 PM   #3
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
RE: Epoxy Questions

Next to penicillin, Epoxy may well be mankind's greatest discovery.* I use epoxy wherever I wanted to make absolutely sure wood parts will never come apart, but there are cautions and limitations.* First, when the pieces are put together, they really shouldn't be tightly clamped unless you use a biscuit joint or equivalent.* Epoxy depends on itself for integrity and strength, and when you clamp it, most of the epoxy exits the joint, leaving it weaker than if you used another glue, like a polyurethane.* If you get carried away with the thickener, you can reduce the epoxy's ability to soak into wood and end up with a weaker joint.* All thickeners should be no coarser than fine sanding dust.* Color matching to the wood being glued can be kind of sort of achieved by using sanding dust from the wood itself.* Don't add more thickener than necessary to achieve the desired reduction in 'runniness', unless you are using the epoxy as a fairing compound.*

I have used epoxy to fix a threaded vent fitting into a bilge tank that would weep diesel when the tank was filled.* I sprayed it clean with carburetor cleaner, then dripped MEK thinned epoxy into the joint.* Once that kicked, I finished it off with silica thickened epoxy.* No leaks.

I am also a strong believer in using thinned epoxy as a pre-varnish base.* It has to be sanded carefully because it tends roll up rather than sand, but with varnish providing UV protection, you have a very durable finish.

Finally, Ace epoxy is the bottom of the barrel, quality wise.* West is good, as is Systems Three.* The West thickeners are outstanding.

I could go on, but I have to re-epoxy my wife's feet to the floor in front of the stove.* She pulled up the tiles.
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 01:37 AM   #4
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Epoxy Questions

Quote:
Forkliftt wrote:

So what other applications are there on a boat for epoxy?

*
If you have a wood boat, or a boat with wood trim, one of the best products on the planet is CPES (clear penetrating epoxy sealer).* While our boat is fiberglass it has a rainforest of teak on it, from the exterior trim, handrails, and caprails, to all the interior trim and cabinetry.* The boat's interior sidewalls and bulkheads are painted mahogany, the window frames are mahogany, mast and boom are wood, etc..*

Any repairs we do to just about anything made of wood other than the deck get several applications of CPES (a two-part expoxy with the consistency of diesel fuel) before the application of a bright finish (we use Bristol) or paint.* The CPES soaks into the wood farther than heavier epoxies and seals the wood cells against moisture intrusion.* No moisture intrusion, no rot.* CPES applied prior to a varnish, Bristol, etc application makes the finish adhere much better and makes it more resistant to lifting over time from moisture intrusion.*

CPES, like most epoxies, has no UV resistance so it must be covered with finishing coats that do, either brightwork finish or paint.* And while it is a two-part epoxy it is not intended to act as an adhesive.* In other words, it's not something you'd use to fasten two pieces of wood (or anything else) together.* It is a wood sealer, but probably the most effective sealer around.* Fabulous stuff.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 27th of April 2010 01:38:57 AM
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 03:01 AM   #5
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,995
RE: Epoxy Questions

Hiya,
Don't forget 5 minute epoxy. The kind you get in the double tube applicator. Thickened with talcum powder, it can be used to fill those nasty nicks and gouges that occasionally occur. Had small "oopsie" from dock rash. Fixed in about 10 min. Ya, ya, it's "on the list" for a permanent repair.
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 06:15 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
albin43's Avatar
 
City: Rochester, NY
Country: US
Vessel Model: Albin 43 Trawler
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 233
RE: Epoxy Questions

Quote:
Delfin wrote:

I could go on, but I have to re-epoxy my wife's feet to the floor in front of the stove.* She pulled up the tiles.
*Great!
albin43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 06:25 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
albin43's Avatar
 
City: Rochester, NY
Country: US
Vessel Model: Albin 43 Trawler
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 233
RE: Epoxy Questions

I use west system for everything. my whole deck project, bedding down anything and everything to insure a watertight seal. ive gone through two 105c kits (5gal each) on my boat. nothing leaks

here are a few examples.

- deck work, recored almost half my decks using douglas fir endgrain bedded with 105/205/406

- glassed my entire decks with 15oz biaxial fabric using 105/205

- glassed my boiler stack in using the same 15oz biaxial fabric and the 105/205

- teak handrail repair using 105/205/405

- fixed leaking windows using a razorblade to remove old caullk and plunge between the wood and cabin and filled with 105/205/406

-rebuild hatches

- glassed over old throughhulls when the boat was last out.

-filled in abunch of crazing and stress cracks and holes from old hardware using 105/205/410

the list goes on and on and on... there isnt any project I dont use it for

west system has a GREAT tech service line and a wonderful epoxyworks magazine. i vote it as the best thing ever invented.

also its folds better then polyester resin, thats for another subject. google polester vs epoxy......
albin43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 06:28 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
albin43's Avatar
 
City: Rochester, NY
Country: US
Vessel Model: Albin 43 Trawler
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 233
RE: Epoxy Questions

http://www.c-cyachts.com/images/comp...oxy_v_Poly.pdf
albin43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 10:04 PM   #9
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Somewhere
Country: , Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer sedan 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,868
Epoxy Questions

When doing wood glueing useing epoxy you should paint the raw wood with unthickened epoxy first so it soaks in a bit. Other wise you may end up with a dry or weaker than expected joint.

Use good gloves, not those crappy latex things which tear easily and defeat the whole purpose of gloves.

I also use a respirator and suggest you do too. I've made myself sick twice from failure to protect properly. The last time I was working in an open at both ends garage with a breeze. What I failed to realize was that because I was working with my face very close I still got a heck of a dose.

The filters need to be able to absorb fumes, not block dust although they will do that.* If you can smell laquer thinner through the elements you have the wrong type.** Activated charcoal is part of it.** You will need several.* They are generally good only for a days use, then a new one.** Keeping them in a tightly sealed plastic ziplock* bag will help but the best is usually two days.

Yeah, some can get away with it for a while but who knows who will get nailed. So protect yourself.

-- Edited by C lectric on Tuesday 27th of April 2010 10:09:11 PM
C lectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 10:32 AM   #10
Guru
 
skipperdude's Avatar
 
City: Whittier AK
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Apache II
Vessel Model: 1974 Donald Jones
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,147
Epoxy Questions

Quote:
Delfin wrote:

*


I am also a strong believer in using thinned epoxy as a pre-varnish base.* It has to be sanded carefully because it tends roll up rather than sand, but with varnish providing UV protection, you have a very durable finish.


.
Would not the addition of a surfacing agent or wax prevent this from happening?
*


-- Edited by skipperdude on Wednesday 28th of April 2010 10:33:47 AM
skipperdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 11:34 AM   #11
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Epoxy Questions

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:Delfin wrote:I am also a strong believer in using thinned epoxy as a pre-varnish base.* It has to be sanded carefully because it tends roll up rather than sand, but with varnish providing UV protection, you have a very durable finish.
Would not the addition of a surfacing agent or wax prevent this from happening?This is what CPES was created for.* Soaks farther into the wood than even thinned epoxy and after application the wood can be finish sanded perfectly.* No roll-up problems or anything.* For sealing wood permanently against moisture intrusion, it's the best stuff on the planet.* We've been using it now for some eleven years and if one has to deal with wood on a boat it makes life WAY easier and the repairs or finish prep we do are as permanent as it's possible to get on a boat.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 28th of April 2010 11:35:24 AM
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 11:59 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
albin43's Avatar
 
City: Rochester, NY
Country: US
Vessel Model: Albin 43 Trawler
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 233
RE: Epoxy Questions

west system 105/207 special clear coat is great stuff aswell, ive never used CPES but have used the 105/207. 2 coats of that and then 2 coats of cetol looks like 12 coats of cetol. when refinishing is needed you sand down to the epoxy and recoat. it really is great stuff. i cant afford to do that to all my teak right now or i would. looks like only cetol for me.
albin43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 03:38 PM   #13
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
RE: Epoxy Questions

I have used Smith's penetrating epoxy which is the same stuff as CPES, but found it was only regular epoxy mixed with MEK, so it is cheaper to make your own.* The other advantage of mixing your own is that you can pick your consistency.
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 03:45 PM   #14
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
RE: Epoxy Questions

Great info!
Forkliftt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 08:01 PM   #15
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
RE: Epoxy Questions

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:
Would not the addition of a surfacing agent or wax prevent this from happening?
Maybe, although it might then affect the adhesion of the varnish.* It's not really a problem - you just have to avoid a lot of pressure since it is friction heat that makes the epoxy gummy.

*
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 08:44 PM   #16
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Epoxy Questions

Quote:
Delfin wrote:

I have used Smith's penetrating epoxy which is the same stuff as CPES, but found it was only regular epoxy mixed with MEK....
Not true, actually.* What CPES isn't is regular epoxy mixed with MEK.* If you do this, you end up with a very brittle filling since the MEK flashes off and you're left with the hard, brittle cured epoxy.* Also, since the MEK flashes off so fast it doesn't carry the epoxy very deep into the wood.** All standard epoxies, including WEST, are petroleum based, and thus cure very hard and brittle.* The resins in CPES are derived mostly from wood and when cured have a toughness and flexibility very*similar to wood.

There is also alchohol and other organic additives in CPES*to help it displace moisture and so penetrate deeper into wood because these "carriers" evaporate over a long period of time.

This info is all on the Rot Doctor website.

I know a few*people in our marina*who tried the "thinned epoxy" route and they told me that while*it worked to a degree it didn't do as good a job as CPES, and they went back to CPES.*

I learned about CPES on the GB owners forum where it is one of the most important repair and restoration tools, particularly for the woody owners.* Many of them have stated they*tried the thinned epoxy route and subsequently went back to CPES for its superior penetration qualities and ability to maintain the attributes of the wood it's applied to.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 05:15 PM   #17
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
Epoxy Questions

Quote:
Marin wrote:

*
Delfin wrote:

I have used Smith's penetrating epoxy which is the same stuff as CPES, but found it was only regular epoxy mixed with MEK....
Not true, actually.* What CPES isn't is regular epoxy mixed with MEK.* If you do this, you end up with a very brittle filling since the MEK flashes off and you're left with the hard, brittle cured epoxy.* Also, since the MEK flashes off so fast it doesn't carry the epoxy very deep into the wood.** All standard epoxies, including WEST, are petroleum based, and thus cure very hard and brittle.* The resins in CPES are derived mostly from wood and when cured have a toughness and flexibility very*similar to wood.

I'm not sure how many gallons of MEK thinned epoxy I have squirted into rotten window sashing, footings, or painted on teak, spruce, port orchard cedar, but it would be a few.* The MEK does not 'flash', but carries the epoxy as far as reasonable into the wood.* If you use Balsa wood, like the manufacturers advertising their products do to demonstrate their products, or punky wood like I do in real life, you get great penetration.* The "organic" solvents in CPES that you say go over over a "longer period of time" have a name.* It is MEK.* Take a whiff of CPES, then take a whiff of MEK.* Besides losing 2% of your brain cells, your sniffer will tell you what the solvent in CPES is.* MEK is not acetone and goes off fairly slowly, which is why they use it for this purpose.*

Marin, you're quoting from the CPES advertisement when you say "epoxy dries hard and brittle."* Compared to thinned epoxy like CPES, which don't actually harden much, that might be true but it depends on the thickener you use.* Want 'wood like' epoxy?* Thicken with wood dust and plane it like wood.


-- Edited by Delfin on Friday 30th of April 2010 05:21:35 PM
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2010, 07:06 PM   #18
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Epoxy Questions

Quote:
Delfin wrote:

*The "organic" solvents in CPES that you say go over over a "longer period of time" have a name.* It is MEK.*
I guess that's something you'll have to take up with the CPES folks, since the owner of Rot Doctor here in Seattle**has told me that they DON'T use MEK in their product which he says say is why the product he carries*works better as a penetrating epoxy sealer than simply mixing regular epoxy with MEK.

I'm not a chemist, so it's not something I know about nor have any interest in learning about.* All I care about is what people who have tried both have told me--- CPES does a better job and penetrates farther than standard epoxy cut with MEK.

Given the credentials and experience*of people like Bob Lowe and Mike Negley on the GB Owners forums, I'm going to follow their recommendation and advice reagrding CPES vs. any other type of penetrating epoxy, home-made or otherwise.

Not saying you're wrong, just that I have no reason to believe you're right

*
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2010, 04:00 AM   #19
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
RE: Epoxy Questions

"Would not the addition of a surfacing agent or wax prevent this from happening?"

A wax or surfectant is required on the last coat of polly resin , as the stuff is air inhibited, (the surface doesn't cure) so the next layers can be put on ,,,with out sanding (secondary bonding).

We have always alcohol to create our own "Git Rot" from OTS (usually West) epoxy.


Extra hardener is required after about 5% thinning.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2010, 06:07 AM   #20
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Epoxy Questions

Marin is right, CPES is not epoxy thinned with MEK. It is epoxy thinned with naptha, xylene, and toluene in decreasing proportions. About 70 percent of the stuff is solvent.

Look at the MSDS if you want to see what is in it. The primary ingredient, listed first just like the contents label on a can of soft drink, shows a mysterious "aromatic hydrocarbon" which if you look up the CAS# 64742-95-6 will tell you it is naptha, the same stuff used to fill a Zippo lighter.

Just like the mouse milk folks, these guys depend on establishing a cult following based on ignorance of the process and the blend of ingredients. The only way to get rid of rot is to replace the rotten wood. All you get with magic wood restoration products is a volume of plastic surrounded by rotten wood.



-- Edited by RickB on Saturday 1st of May 2010 06:10:41 AM
__________________

RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fiberglassing and epoxy Salty Bear II General Maintenance 15 09-05-2012 03:23 PM
Epoxy Polyamide Paint Bluetide General Maintenance 3 01-06-2012 03:53 PM
best epoxy wood to fiberglass? Woodsong General Discussion 9 01-03-2011 09:47 AM
What finish over epoxy plugs? Keith General Discussion 10 06-04-2010 07:28 AM
Epoxy vapor problem Mama Cat General Maintenance 13 08-11-2008 06:09 AM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012