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Old 01-27-2014, 08:37 AM   #1
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Epoxy Alternatives/split from Hendo's build thread

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Originally Posted by Hendo78 View Post
The products I am using are Boatcraft Pacific Australian made Bote-Cote. The filler is Bote-Cote faring powder mixed with the bote-cote epoxy resin system. I have to use 80 grit sanding belts due to its concrete like strength.
Yep, thought it looked a bitch to sand

You may consider Qcells which are light and easy to sand and I have used them with great success for decades though they are getting pricier than they were but still cheaper than bote cote list for their powders
or I am looking into these Cenospheres - Fillers, Lightweight - Kirkside Products Perth WA from WA - want to be my guinea pig?
I imagine they would cost a fraction of what Bote coat and Qcell are charging for their powders.
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Old 01-27-2014, 11:57 AM   #2
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I used vinyl paint called Bote Coat (not sure of the spelling) in the early 70s. Was a very good product but was very thin and didn't adhere to old paint.

Wonder if it's the same company.
The cans were mostly red.
They also made aircraft finishes that were lightweight.
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Old 01-27-2014, 05:22 PM   #3
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Not sure why but anything "spheres" are not recommended for use below the waterline by some of the epoxy suppliers I have dealt with.

However found this...so it's a use with caution maybe?

"However, glass bubbles produce a more waterproof filler mix and"
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Old 01-27-2014, 07:08 PM   #4
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Not sure why but anything "spheres" are not recommended for use below the waterline by some of the epoxy suppliers I have dealt with.
Are they the same ones who try to sell you their expensive microballoons instead?
Microballoons are actually hollow phenolic resin spheres.

It makes no sense at all when you consider that (at least I always have) rolled in pure epoxy (to about 200mm above DWL) over finished product and then while tacky it gets several layers of waterproof epoxy highbuild/primer sprayed on it before the addition of any final antifoul or topcoats.
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Old 01-27-2014, 07:16 PM   #5
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Are they the same ones who try to sell you their expensive microballoons instead?
Microballoons are actually hollow phenolic resin spheres.

It makes no sense at all when you consider that (at least I always have) rolled in pure epoxy (to about 200mm above DWL) over finished product and then while tacky it gets several layers of waterproof epoxy highbuild/primer sprayed on it before the addition of any final antifoul or topcoats.
Just relaying what some "experts" in the field think...

Don Casey for Boat US writes...
"6. Now thicken some epoxy to a peanut-butter consistency with colloidal silica and fill the cavities with this filler, using a squeegee to compress and fair it. Silica-thickened epoxy is difficult to sand, so fair the repairs well. Never use microballons or any other hollow or absorbent (talc, for example) fairing compound to fill blisters."

So there are some pretty influential people in the field that think the amount of possible absorption degrades the possible repair or fairing underwater...again...I don't know the chemical reason behind it but there's other fairing compounds available...
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Old 01-27-2014, 07:52 PM   #6
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Just relaying what some "experts" in the field think... Never use microballons or any other hollow or absorbent (talc, for example) fairing compound to fill blisters."
I wouldn't use it to fill blisters either.
But carving out gaping wounds in the hull structure and filling with low density filler is very different to a wafer thin screed of cosmetic filler on the outside of the structure.
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Old 01-27-2014, 09:06 PM   #7
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I wouldn't use it to fill blisters either.
But carving out gaping wounds in the hull structure and filling with low density filler is very different to a wafer thin screed of cosmetic filler on the outside of the structure.
I agree...but the concept that he states elsewhere and others suggest "less absorbent materials" are recommended over everything else for ANY application below the waterline.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:01 AM   #8
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Blister repair

Polyester resin and chop glass fiber or layers of mat disks whetted out with resin makes the best blister repair. Sands better , more flexibility as to working time and temp range. Why would repair a polyester laminate with a different resin? Would you weld steel with aluminum welding rod?
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:16 AM   #9
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I'm posting here so I get notice of others' posts. I've nothing to add, yet... Please carry on! I appreciate the info I'm reading!!
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:09 AM   #10
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Why would repair a polyester laminate with a different resin? Would you weld steel with aluminum welding rod?
No because that obviously would not work
But epoxy is a far superior product to poly and if you are cutting out blisters from polyester failure, why would you want to put the same crap back in?
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:11 AM   #11
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I agree...but the concept that he states elsewhere and others suggest "less absorbent materials" are recommended over everything else for ANY application below the waterline.
Well, all I can say is 20 plus years in the game and have worked on dozens of composite builds using that method under the waterline and I havent had a problem or heard of one yet.
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Old 01-28-2014, 07:14 AM   #12
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Why would repair a polyester laminate with a different resin?

Because secondary bonds with polly are very difficult to get strong , and polly shrinks over time , calling for yet more fairing., perhaps a year later.

Polly is great to new BUILD a GRP boat , after that epoxy is the glue of choice.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:38 AM   #13
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Seems like manufacturers say they are OK (of course they want to sell them but after decades, failures would put an end to that practice I would think), end users say no (probably because of failures whether microballon related or not) and suppliers send cautions that ring of both.
So I'm not sure whether to use them or not.
Here's just a few of the yes/no support...
Yes
http://www.shop.aafibreglass.net/Phenelic-Microballoons-1Lt-9318098716903.htm
Phenelic Microcballoons are extremely tiny hollow phenolic resin bubbles. They are used as fairing fillers in boating projects (suitable for underwater applications) and lightweight fillers when casting etc.</SPAN>

http://www.altexcoatings.co.nz/vdb/document/1345
Microballoons
Premium ultra light weight filler for fairing, filling and filleting above and below water lue Powder improves sag resistance and application properties.

No
http://www.bertram31.com/proj/struts/struts.htm
CAUTION! Do not use fairing compounds that contain microballoons for underwater fairing! One excellent epoxy compound for underwater fairing use is the FASCO #26 FAS-FAIR. It is a pre-thickened compound with silicone as one of the thickeners, but must be made thixothropic by the addition of cabosil. FASCO makes several good general purpose epoxies that are mixed with a 1:1 ratio. Most fiberglass suppliers carry these products.

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/blister-repair.asp
You also need a filler to thicken the epoxy into a putty. Select colloidal silica. Never use microballoons or any other hollow or absorbent (talc, for example) fairing compound to fill blisters.
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:38 AM   #14
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Quote:
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I am looking into these Cenospheres - Fillers, Lightweight - Kirkside Products Perth WA from WA - want to be my guinea pig?
And to what advantage?
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:26 AM   #15
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Tom I've always thought it's to decrease the density of some resins. It's extensively used in home built aircraft as it makes the resulting structure much lighter.

We choose mass in boatbuilding be it plastic, metal or wood. The scantlings are a big part of it but the density and strength of all the materials is also very important. That's why we seldom see a boat made out of the same species of wood. Oak frames, cedar planking ect.

Using something as heavy as plastic makes for a heavy boat (or AC)
and the microballons can reduce that weight significantly.

And if the boat isn't going to be abused just a good coat of paint is all that's needed. Repairs are a lot easier that way too. And w/o using expensive or exotic materials or methods the plywood boat will be stronger and lighter. But the easiest boat to repair is a planked wood boat. No glues or adhesives. One should be able to take one apart completely and reassemble. Requiring new caulking of course.
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:59 PM   #16
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Yes - Yes - No
All sorts of views and opinion on the internet, rarely does any of it agree with others.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:01 PM   #17
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And to what advantage?
Save weight , save labour, save excessive sandpaper usage, save $$

Have you ever tried to epoxy resin and microfibre (glue powder)
Try longboarding concrete to find out
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Why would repair a polyester laminate with a different resin?
I would do it because
A) epoxy is a far superior product
B) I have no poly but plenty of epoxy
Quote:
Because secondary bonds with polly are very difficult to get strong
Only if you have poor prep
Quote:
and polly shrinks over time , calling for yet more fairing., perhaps a year later.
Never seen a problem with epoxy/poly/fairing.
If its such a problem as you claim I wonder why the experts, when doing blister repairs on failed poly, use epoxy ?
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:14 PM   #19
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Tom I've always thought it's to decrease the density of some resins. It's extensively used in home built aircraft as it makes the resulting structure much lighter.

Using something as heavy as plastic makes for a heavy boat (or AC)
and the microballons can reduce that weight significantly.

And if the boat isn't going to be abused just a good coat of paint is all that's needed. Repairs are a lot easier that way too.
Exactly
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Old 01-28-2014, 07:21 PM   #20
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I like epoxy and Cabosil, but micro balloons sand much easier. Epoxy and milled fiber is stronger than either. All that being said, I generally use sawdust, or if I need a really smooth surface I use sander dust. On occasion I have used plain white flour, non rising of course . I NEVER and will NEVER use polyester for any boat repair. Anything encased in epoxy will not absorb water.
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