Deck delamination

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

timjet

Guru
Joined
Apr 9, 2009
Messages
1,920
I need some help as to what to do with deck delamination. In replacing my windlass I had to cut a bigger hole for the chain to fall through and the plywood where I cut the hole was seeping with water and has delaminated as show in the pictures. There is some swelling around the area where I cut the hole too.
 

Attachments

  • imag0099_edited.jpg
    imag0099_edited.jpg
    28.2 KB · Views: 146
  • imag0100_edited.jpg
    imag0100_edited.jpg
    45.3 KB · Views: 130
  • imag0101_edited.jpg
    imag0101_edited.jpg
    45.5 KB · Views: 148
Thanks Dave. I believe the water intrusion came from the hole in the picture. I was aware of elevated moisture readings in the area upon completion of survey.

Surveyor's comments: Elevated moisture and early signs of delaminating observed along the foredeck and running back approx 5' along the starboard gunwale. A picture shows readings of 24-34% in the effected area. This was a year ago.

After survey I got some fiberglass resin and stuffed as much in the existing hole as I could thinking that would stop more water intrusion. When I enlarged the hole I was surprised to see the plywood around the enlarged hole socked with water.

Is it possible to stop further water intrusion or will the existing water in the plywood continue to spread and de-laminate more of the deck?
 
If I did not want to do a full blown, cut out and core replacement.* I would clean out as much wet core as I could with some kind of reefing tool, or a drill bit, or such.

Than I would try and dry it as best I could.

Clean it out with acetone, and push epoxy into to the gap with a paint brush. Follow with filling the rest with epoxy and a thickening powder.* When all cured grind or sand smooth.* Reinstall your deck fitting with good caulk and hope for the best.

If you stop the water the deck will probably not get worse.

JohnP
 
How spongy is your deck? If the core has not degraded to much, go with what John recomends. if the wet core section is more mush than wood you will need to rectify not only the problem regarding where the water is getting in but also you will need to reinforce the affected area.

We had this problem and were forced to go down the latter route which became bigger than Ben Hur.

If you have access, I think David 's suggestion would be the go. From our experience it will take quite a while for the deck to dry out, probably the whole summer to do it properly.

I think the way you approach the problem may also depend on how long you intend to keep the boat.

Good luck
 
JohnP wrote:
If I did not want to do a full blown, cut out and core replacement.* I would clean out as much wet core as I could with some kind of reefing tool, or a drill bit, or such.

Than I would try and dry it as best I could.

Clean it out with acetone, and push epoxy into to the gap with a paint brush. Follow with filling the rest with epoxy and a thickening powder.* When all cured grind or sand smooth.* Reinstall your deck fitting with good caulk and hope for the best.

If you stop the water the deck will probably not get worse.

JohnP
Generally, the advise already given is good. All I would add, is to investigate the area all around the known damage, to verify the source of the moisture. Next, I would apply heat and air flow via fan at the opening you have. I would continue this for a month or so, hoping to wick the moisture toward the hole. Then, proceed as mentioned, spending a great deal of time making sure the seal is beyond doubt. If no more moisture is taken on, the degradation should end, and you should retain whatever deck strength you currently have.*

*


-- Edited by Carey on Sunday 10th of April 2011 08:48:28 PM
 
Only thing I would say to amend David's recommendation is I would NOT go back with more plywood or balsa core! We recored our entire foredeck and aft bridge deck this past fall due to water intrusion and went with coracell synthetic coring. It does not absorb water and the last thing I wanted to do was to recore and have another leak occur and have to totally recore AGAIN. :)

In my experience, if you are already finding that much moisture, it will be very hard to dry out the coring and if you epoxy the edges then all you are doing is trapping the moisture in the coring to continue doing damage. Tough call as to whether it would be cheaper to recore from inside and below or outside and from above. We did ours from outside but we knew we were painting the topsides so matching gelcoat wasn't an issue for us.
 
Thanks again guys. Looks like I'll need to get some professional help with this. I tried to seal the hole once and it didn't work. I'll check out coracell.
 
Sorry, I was not thinking last night. It is called Core Cell, not coracell. :) Here is a link to the product:
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|10918|16458|309319&id=21979

Our coring was actually 5/8" but you are probably cored with 1/2". It's not cheap but it is cheaper than recoring twice due to plywood/balsa getting wet again later down the road. :)

You definitely need to determine where the moisture is coming from though otherwise your problem will persist!
 
You can allow it to dry out by drilling some holes from the underside if you have access there.* 1/4 holes work well from my experience.

*
 
Drilling holes can definitely help. I've looked at some boats with coring issues...when we drilled from below one one of them water came gushing out like a faucet for a moment! Not a good sign. :)
 
I'll try drilling holes from underneath. At least that will give me an idea of the extent of the water intrusion.
When I enlarged the hole for the windlass water came gushing out, as you say, not good.
We're headed to the Keys next month and as a temporary measure I'm fabricating a 3/4 " ply backing plate for the new windlass.
 
timjet wrote:
I'll try drilling holes from underneath. At least that will give me an idea of the extent of the water intrusion.
When I enlarged the hole for the windlass water came gushing out, as you say, not good.
*Yes. Make sure you remember to wipe the drill after each hole so you'll know when you hit dry land.
biggrin.gif


As an EX old Mainship owner I consider myself very experienced in deck core repair.
confuse.gif
*I have done lots of repair using various methods including "drill and fill", remove outer skin and repair from above, remove inner skin and repair from below. All core I have replaced has been with plywood and polyester resins. *Yes some of the previously mentioned materials are waterproof, but I am comfortable working with plywood. Done right it's a permanent repair for all intents.

Your deck issue will not be all that hard to fix, just time consuming and messy. If you choose to do it yourself we can help guide you.

*
 
Timjet, I'd think twice about drilling from below. Think about it. You have damp core, but at present it's trapped between a sandwich of waterproof fibreglass layers above and below. Disrupt that with holes and you have the potential for leaks that were not there before. After all, if the damp core remains just that, a damp core - sealed top and bottom by glass, why bother doing anything at all unless the integrity of the laminates above or below is compromised, (which is what your drill holes would do). It is probably still contributing some stiffness to the deck, but if it's too springy, then one might be better off, after removing old teak - the usual cause of this damp core, and then laying down a stiffener, then glassing over. How do I know? Because the decks of my boat had leaked and gone soft here and there, and the previous owner, not wanting to spend a $quillion, had the above done. I would have been a bit worried too, but even now, 15 yrs later, the decks done like that are fine. No damp comes through, and apart from the fact I know there is a layer of damp core in under there because I have drilled out holes for deck waste outlets and water-in fillers, and can see the two separate layers, sandwiched, one damp, and the top one still nice and dry, I would never know otherwise. It comes back to the old adage, "if it ain't broke".....well, at least don't over-fix it....is all I'm saying.....
 
I agree with Peter. A quick and easy fix would be to take out as much core as possible from the existing hole as others have suggested (an allen key in a drill works good for this). But instead of filling the void with thicken resin or epoxy, I would use fiber putty. Much easier to work with to fill big gaps.
 
Wow, thanks guys, lots to think about.
The deck under disscussion is 1/2 " ply between layers of glass around the area of the windlass.
I can clean out the area around the windlass hole and fill with puddy if Peter call guide me as to where to get it.

I'm not certain the moisture is coming from the windlass hole, but I see no other area that it can come from.
 
TIm,
If you can fix it with filler or epoxy or something, great. Personally, I find it concerning that the surveyor found elevated moisture readings 5' back from the windlass. Combining that with the fact you had "flowing water" come out when you enlarged the hole....well....this, to me indicates a possible pretty big area of delamination that is beyond just putting in some filler and hoping. If you tap the deck area with a mallet or something, how far back are you getting a dull sound? If you have not sounded the hull yet you need to do it as it will really show you how big of an issue you have going on here. If you seal it up with filler and have not found and corrected the source of the leak you will only force the water to further spread into the rest of the core so make sure you have the source isolated and fixed or the delamniation will get worse.
 
The Daffynition of "Trawler" changes with time.

If you are inshore 100% of the time , you will get away with a very different concept of "repair " than should you see waves breaking on deck for a few hours .
 
I'm headed down to the boat this weekend and will sound the deck a bit to try and determine the extent of the water intrusion.
The deck is not spongy when I walk on it so I think what I will do is make sure as best I can that the water intrusion is coming from the windlass hole and no where else.
If I can determine that then I will drill 1/4 inch holes on the underneath side to drain and allow to dry.
Clean out the hole and fill with puddy.
Get a moisture meter and monitor the area for a year or so and see what happens.

Sound like a good plan??

FF, if I allow this to continue maybe one day I'll be setting the anchor and fall into the fwd V berth!! I gotta do something about this.
 
if the ply in the deck isnt actually rotten why not vacuum bag the area for a few days then epoxy the thing back together after it is dry.. drill a few holes through the bottom side and suck the epoxy into the core??

*

HOLLYWOOD
 
I'll report back my findings when I return from the boat this weekend.
 
A quick thought, how do the top of your fuel tanks look. the filler caps for both water & fuel are some of the usual suspects in water seepage issues.
 
shrimp wrote:
A quick thought, how do the top of your fuel tanks look. the filler caps for both water & fuel are some of the usual suspects in water seepage issues.
Same for me. When I removed the original fuel tanks, I was able to pull out the filler caps by simply pushing on them from beneath, without even removing the screws!

*
 
Thanks guys, no problems with fuel, water or waste fill caps, but will give a second look.
 
I Had a 2' patch around a bolt hole in my back deck. The moisture meter pegged. I used it to estimate the size of the area.

I dealt with it by cleaning the edge of the plywood with a dremel so there was no sealer or dirt at the exposed edge.

I rigged a muffin/computer fan so it blew through the hole to carry moisture away. You don't need a hurricane, just a steady flow of air to carry moisture off quickly and positively.

Then I rigged several heat lamps (175 & 250W) on several mickey mouse holders (2 x 4) to keep the lamps stable and above the deck about 16-18". Stuck around untill I was sure the deck was very warm but not hot enough to damage the glass or ply.

I made sure all the lamps were clustered around the hole to dry that area first. Then as that dried I moved the lamps further afield although clustered to keep the area warm. I kept one lamp aimed at the bolt hole to keep it warm and hasten evaporation.* It worked although it was about 2 weeks before I was able to be sure the ply was dry. I then sealed the hole with epoxy.

It took almost a week before I could really see that the moisture level was dropping as moisture moved from the wetter areas into the dry areas. The meter slowly dropped from a click as it pegged (+ 30%) to under 10%. I'm not done as there are 4 other holes to do this year although , thankfully, the meter show the water is only about 6" around each.

I had to rig a tarp to keep the rain off or I would lose a lamp when the rain nailed it.

If you have the time and can protect the area from the weather adequately you may be able to dry the deck out and stop any further damage. The water, even if you stop more entry, will continue to migrate.

I was just thinking that the application of a shop vac to the underside of the hole may pull liquid water more quickly than the fan and heat initially. You likely will have to close the top of the hole somehow (mickey mouse). I haven't tried this, it's just an idea for whatever it's worth.

It may also be worth using the meter to find the farthest downhill point the water has reached and try drill a hole underneath to see if there is liquid water that will exit which should help the rest of the dry out.

Good luck
Clark.




-- Edited by C lectric on Thursday 14th of April 2011 10:30:04 PM
 
I don't really know if the wood is solid all the way where it was wet. The area around the bolt hole was still solid wood, not punky or rotten. I probed it as well as I could. It made the dremel and its cutter work hard. It was based on that and the deck seemed and sounded solid that I took a chance and attempted what I did.

I understand what you mean about the wood, once dried out, not really being the same.

I was not so lucky with the lazarette hatch cover in the same deck. The entry point was the lifting ring which was not sealed at all. That was balsa core and a good chunk of it was rotten and allowing the hatch to sag. Took it home and took off the entire back and rebuilt it. The back glass layer was only joined to the*top at the edge and in many places that join was broken. I laminated a solid glass perimeter about 4" all the way around, filled the rest with Divinycell and closed it up with a solid 4 " wide join for a solid attachment for the back and for the hardware to attach to with no entry to the core.


It sounds like you too are having fun (??) with your boat. At least it keeps us out of trouble, or does it?


-- Edited by C lectric on Friday 15th of April 2011 10:40:01 PM
 
After doing some additional investigating I have some additional info to add.

The attached pictures shows pretty much the extent of the delamination. It appears water intrusion come from the following places. The starboard hole for the windlass retract switch, the hole the chain/rode retracts through, the hole to allow the windlass shaft to be mounted through the deck and the forward anchor cleat mounting holes.

Dull pinging was heard from the anchor cleat mounting holes to the location shown in the picture, about 5 feet back on the lower deck starboard side. Solid pinging was heard on the raised toe rail.

No delamination was noted or heard on the raised deck or on the port side of the lower deck area.

I drilled a couple of 1/4 inch holes from underneath but water did not gush out. The holes are pretty small and it was hard to tell if there was any moisture. I only have access from underneath the deck from the forward anchor cleat area to about where the raised deck area starts.

I do not have underneath access on the lower deck area from where the raised deck area starts back to where the blue arrow is. So my concern is how do I dry this area out and how will I know when it's dry?

*
 

Attachments

  • deck delamination.jpg
    deck delamination.jpg
    86.7 KB · Views: 125
That's a fairly small degree of damp in that case. I doubt it is possible to really dry out damp core without stripping off the entire upper fibreglass layer, then re-coring. I suspect that sort of job is a cross between a can of worms and Pandora's box. If it was me, ( I know it isn't), I would just seal those breaches best you can and forget about it if there is no leaks inside, and there shouldn't be because you have another whole underside deck of fibreglass. Not a perfect solution, but hey...damp sandwich...dry sandwich, who's to know 'cept you? Just stop jumping up and down on the slightly springy area and get out there and have some fun. Remember that's what it's meant to be - and the flip side to that is..."if it ain't broke don't fix it". There's enough else to do on any boat that does show and must be done. It's not really structural, it's not a safety issue, so it's just a case of accepting your boat will NEVER be perfect. Speaking for myself, I've become sort of used to imperfection.
 
hmm.
Here is my take for what it is worth:
I don't see a lot of such delamntation on your model year 355 and I've sold several. Your surveyor should have really highlighted the fact that you have a good sized area of delamination prior to your purchasing but that is water under the bridge, er, water under the foredeck. :) When you go to sell, this issue will pop up again unless you fix it correctly now. If found at survey when you sell it will either cause a buyer to walk or a buyer to demand a price reduction to fix it. Even if the decks are not soft, the fact that it is pinging dull shows you it has a lot of water in there and you can't really hide that. It then becomes your decision- do I fix it correctly now which mist likely will cost a lot of $$$ and as mentioned, a potential can of worms, or go for the easy fix with epoxy and just wait it out and see what happens. In my experience, pandora's box or a can of worms rarely goes away over time. Left alone, that can of worms tends to become more of a big box of worms. I am of the opinion that repairs like this should be fully dealt with and fully fixed. That may or may not make economic sense for you to do that. Factors such as what you paid, etc. play into it and the overall cost/benefit analysis has to be done. *But coring issues don't just go away- they need to be fixed or they typically fester and get worse over time. *


-- Edited by Woodsong on Monday 18th of April 2011 12:53:27 PM
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom