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Old 10-03-2014, 01:06 PM   #21
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We disassembled and re-glued our teak shower grate not long after acquiring the boat in 1998. Given all the corners and joints, we did not want to put any kind of finish on it because it would just be a matter of time before hairline cracks would start letting moisture get under the finish. So we soaked the grate in CPES for awhile and then let it cure. No finish was applied over the CPES. The color of the wood matches the color of the finished teak inside the boat.

The grate has been waterproof with narry a creak when one walks on it ever since.

Like most epoxies, CPES breaks down fairly rapidly from UV light unless there is protection over it, either a bright finish or paint. The only reason our shower grate has not had any UV problems is that it lives in the dark or near dark in the aft head.
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Old 10-03-2014, 02:20 PM   #22
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Brian (@ #17): I am going to use Altex Timbercoat Clear Gloss. This is the standard exterior varnish used by the shipwrights at my marina. Actually I had intended to use Epifanes, which has many dedicated followers on the Forum....but it is very hard to get in Australia (appears to be only one very part-time distributor in Brisbane !)
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:09 PM   #23
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The Altex looks to be a good product. I have an unopened tin of Epifanes from when I brought the boat back. Of course just one tin won't go all that far so I'll need to be selective about what project I use it for. I'm hoping that it will have a good shelf life until opened for the first time.

I have been disappointed in the Sikkens Cetol. Even the Light is a bit too orange in colour for my liking and it does not have very good abrasion resistance. I have only seen it at one chandlery here, and it was quite expensive and only available in small tins. So I was contemplating using a one pack exterior urethane from hardware store on the basis that it will be widely available and should have adequate UV protection. But I will check around some more. I will go the CPES route as well, but will just do sections at a time. I'm wanting to cruise more and work less...

Also, I have some opening at joins in my Portuguese Bridge caprail. I had the rails covered with navy blue sunbrella. Dark colours absorb a lot of heat and think that the teak may have become too hot under the covers and dried out. So I don't think I'll put the covers back on either. Rather, just use multiple coats of a good UV protecting varnish. I'm hoping I can clean the joint out with a thin blade and then epoxy and clamp.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:27 PM   #24
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I have been disappointed in the Sikkens Cetol. Even the Light is a bit too orange in colour for my liking and it does not have very good abrasion resistance. I have only seen it at one chandlery here, and it was quite expensive and only available in small tins.
I found Cetol Gloss at Bunnings a while back, in 1L tins, competitive with similar products, certainly cheaper than at chandlers.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:38 PM   #25
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Brian: did you use Cetol Light or Natural? Natural seems to be the preferred colour. And Bruce is quite right...all the Sikkens Cetol products are available at Bunnings or similar, in tins large & small, at reasonable prices. CPES in Oz is Everdure by International Paints, BTW.

I wouldn't epoxy-&-clamp that joint: just clean out and fill with black Sika or equivalent, to allow it to flex...then go over with Cetol or whatever top coat you decide on. (Of course I have same joints in my caprail and they've all been done that way and 'work' fine.)
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:48 PM   #26
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...I wouldn't epoxy-&-clamp that joint: just clean out and fill with black Sika or equivalent, to allow it to flex...then go over with Cetol or whatever top coat you decide on. (Of course I have same joints in my caprail and they've all been done that way and 'work' fine.)
We cleaned the seams then filled with TDS caulk and applied 3 coats of Cetol Light then 3 coats of their gloss. The seams have never opened up or allowed moisture to get under the finish.
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Old 10-04-2014, 01:11 AM   #27
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Cetol, Epifanes, Perfection plus two part, Captains

I'm a firm believer in CPES as a first two coats. When staining wood is desired, it is best to use a water based stain or an alcohol die before applying CPES. Oil base stains inhibit the penetration of CPES defeating the reason for applying it in the first place. Two Part Polyurethanes like Perfection Plus have different solvents from epoxy, so I don't understand how applying them over tacky epoxy would make them stick better. My experience with two part poly is they require a very clean oil free, even finger print free surface to adhere without birds eyes and solvent pops. I usually wipe down the surface with alcohol before applying two part. You can't apply two part poly over oil based stain. It will look like oil on water.
Epifanes has one of the highest amounts of tung oil of the available varnishes in the US. It needs 24 hrs between coats and takes four hours to be tack free. Epifanes holds up better than Captains or hardware store varnish because of the high concentrate of tung oil.
Varnishes like Captains are popular with professionals because they can be re-coated in less than eight hours, jobs can be completed in less time. When getting advice from professionals remember their goal may be different than yours. They are going to be looking at ease of application and fast turn around time.
I don't like the look of Cetol, but in my experience it holds up the best of the varnishes. I use it on my Cap rails and steps. it holds up for years as long as water doesn't work it's way under it. That's where the CPES comes in.
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Old 10-04-2014, 12:11 PM   #28
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We became big believers in Epithanes Wood Finish for ease of use and tremendous durability in places exposed to sun, water, and foot traffic. I read all these threads about these lengthy and elaborate processes and just don't get it.

The aft deck of our Hatteras came to us with a teak (and as it turned out oak, not holly) floor that got a lot of constant, year around abuse from furniture, salt water, sunlight footsteps, stuff getting unloaded from the dinghy, access to the side decks, you name it. It also had a wood staircase to the flying bridge which also gets a ton of traffic. Inside, there are wooden stairs to the galley and more to the sleeping quarters. Six years after applying the Wood Finish Gloss on the FB stairs and aft deck floor, we finally had to touch up a couple areas on the floor where furniture had worn it a bit which include where you come up from the swim platform. All the rest still looked great after 7 years. Here are some 4 year pics.



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Old 10-04-2014, 04:58 PM   #29
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How many coats of Epithanes

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We became big believers in Epithanes Wood Finish for ease of use and tremendous durability in places exposed to sun, water, and foot traffic. I read all these threads about these lengthy and elaborate processes and just don't get it.

The aft deck of our Hatteras came to us with a teak (and as it turned out oak, not holly) floor that got a lot of constant, year around abuse from furniture, salt water, sunlight footsteps, stuff getting unloaded from the dinghy, access to the side decks, you name it. It also had a wood staircase to the flying bridge which also gets a ton of traffic. Inside, there are wooden stairs to the galley and more to the sleeping quarters. Six years after applying the Wood Finish Gloss on the FB stairs and aft deck floor, we finally had to touch up a couple areas on the floor where furniture had worn it a bit which include where you come up from the swim platform. All the rest still looked great after 7 years. Here are some 4 year pics.



Here is a teak table top with 12 coats Epithanes Color sanded with 3000 and machine buffed. The problem with using Epithanes is the 24 hrs between coats, So the finishing process takes 13 days. The advantage of two part poly like Perfection Plus is high gloss and fairly fast recoat time. The downside is it won't cover oil based stains like the Miniwax gunstock on this table. If you want the depth and high gloss finish you need a dust proof environment, not something easy to get outside. Wet sanding with 1500 or 3000 and buffing will deal with dust and small bugs if you are looking for that perfect finish.
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Old 10-04-2014, 05:21 PM   #30
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Table with two part poly

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Here is a teak table top with 12 coats Epithanes Color sanded with 3000 and machine buffed. The problem with using Epithanes is the 24 hrs between coats, So the finishing process takes 13 days. The advantage of two part poly like Perfection Plus is high gloss and fairly fast recoat time. The downside is it won't cover oil based stains like the Miniwax gunstock on this table. If you want the depth and high gloss finish you need a dust proof environment, not something easy to get outside. Wet sanding with 1500 or 3000 and buffing will deal with dust and small bugs if you are looking for that perfect finish.
8 coats of two part Perfection Plus
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Old 10-04-2014, 06:37 PM   #31
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The problem with using Epithanes is the 24 hrs between coats, So the finishing process takes 13 days.
That's true of the Epifanes varnish and it requires light sanding between coats. But the Woodfinish Gloss can be reapplied without the need to sand between coats. They say 24 hrs between coats but I have had great results reapplying after 8-12 hrs for 2 coats per day in our low humidity environment.

Here's a poor shot of the job after about 4 coats of WFG on the cap rail. The hand rail above it was preciously finished with 6-8 coats of Epifanes Gloss Varnish. There is no discernable difference in appearance between the two products.



When I re-do my doors, I'll use 8 coats of Epifanes WFG over 2 applications of CPES. I don't want to have to do them again!!



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Old 10-06-2014, 06:18 AM   #32
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I don't want to have to do them again!!

EZ , store then inside in an air cond space , never let rain stand , and esp wipe off any dew in the AM before the sun rises!
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Old 10-07-2014, 08:09 PM   #33
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I don't want to have to do them again!!

EZ , store then inside in an air cond space , never let rain stand , and esp wipe off any dew in the AM before the sun rises!
My doors? Ya, I'll just take them off the boat every time I return to the slip and bring them home to my air conditioned house. That doesn't sound real practical, Fred, not to mention the risk of theft.
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Old 10-07-2014, 09:19 PM   #34
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That's true of the Epifanes varnish and it requires light sanding between coats. But the Woodfinish Gloss can be reapplied without the need to sand between coats. They say 24 hrs between coats but I have had great results reapplying after 8-12 hrs for 2 coats per day in our low humidity environment.

Here's a poor shot of the job after about 4 coats of WFG on the cap rail. The hand rail above it was preciously finished with 6-8 coats of Epifanes Gloss Varnish. There is no discernable difference in appearance between the two products.



When I re-do my doors, I'll use 8 coats of Epifanes WFG over 2 applications of CPES. I don't want to have to do them again!!



Wood Finish Gloss - Epifanes NA Inc.
Exactly right. That many coats should last a lifetime, we only did 4.
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Old 10-10-2014, 02:22 AM   #35
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Beginner's Stuff-Up: well, I started great guns. Got the timber cockpit doors back to bare wood and sanded smooth. Applied 2 coats of CPES wet-on-wet and gave it 36hours+ to cure. This raised the wood as previously advised so I sanded it smooth again, then applied one more coat of CPES. After 6 hours or so, while still tacky, applied a first coat of varnish to both doors. 24 hours later, they looked really great: the CPES had filled the grain and with just one coat the varnish was looking smooth & glossy. So, I enthusiastically applied a 2nd varnish coat to one door. Finished the first door and stopped to look over my work. As I looked, the surface began to orange-peel and bubble up! Remember, this was my 2nd coat of varnish, so I didn't suspect the CPES....I thought I hadn't given the first varnish coat time enough to cure. Fortunately I hadn't 2nd-coat'd the 2nd door, the first coat on which continued to look great. So to play safe, I left the 2nd door alone for another 48 hours while I stripped back (heat gun, scraper and sander) the first door. I also called CPES tech support for advice: didn't get them immediately so left a msg.
So now I had one door stripped back (I suppose much of the CPES coats were still intact) and one door with an un-blemished 1st varnish coat on board. I re-varnished the stripped door and waited...and waited....all looked good again. So I started putting a 2nd coat on the 2nd door, but was cautious and only did a couple of the rails....only to see the orange peel/bubbles effect again !
Then the CPES tech support guy called me. Long story short, the idea of putting varnish onto tacky CPES only works for 2-pack varnish products (polyurethane, Bristol, etc). For one-pack varnishes like I'm using, the CPES must be allowed to fully cure, be sanded smooth and cleaned off with a water-damp rag. No one-pack varnish onto tacky CPES!
Hope this helps another varnishing newbie!

Anyway, the 2nd door has now been cleaned back and another '1st' coat of varnish applied...looks good. The 1st door now has 3 coats of varnish on & is looking great. I'll keep on coating with varnish until I get 6 coats on or the Admiral kicks me out of the garage, whichever happens first.
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Old 10-10-2014, 02:44 AM   #36
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Hmm, maybe I should send beer so you can stay in the garage for as long as it takes to get the job done.....

Belated reply to your earlier question - the Cetol I used was Light, not Natural. From the test strips in the shop, Light looked the best at the time..... I suspect that a lot of the abrasion I am seeing on it is a result of the way the boat was secured during shipping to Australia.

I've now got some caulk - I ended up with Sika 290i DC from Whitworths - so over the next couple of days I will clean out the problem caprail and toerail joins and hopefully get some caulk a reasonable way into the gaps. With the gaps sealed I will wait a bit longer before starting on the strip and CPES phase. Well, that's the plan at present.

I have just anchored in Deanbilla Bay, close to Dunwich so I can get the weekend papers in the morning before then heading off elsewhere. Deanbilla has a lot of seagrass on a muddy bottom, and last time I was here I could not set the Forfjord style anchor, it just plugged up with grass then dragged. So rigged up the alloy Sarca. It set instantly, so I am going to continue using it around the bay.
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Old 10-10-2014, 07:11 AM   #37
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Cpes before caulking

I've now got some caulk - I ended up with Sika 290i DC from Whitworths - so over the next couple of days I will clean out the problem caprail and toerail joins and hopefully get some caulk a reasonable way into the gaps. With the gaps sealed I will wait a bit longer before starting on the strip and CPES phase. Well, that's the plan at present.


Seal the wood with CPES first,, Sika is a good product, mask the joint both sides before caulking with sika, this will keep the Sika from filling the grain next to the joint and give a cleaner appearance. If you varnish over the Sika, this will be your first point of failure down the road. I would probably CPES and varnish before applying the Sika the first time. Future coats you pretty much are stuck applying the varnish over the caulk.
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Old 10-10-2014, 07:53 AM   #38
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Smart move

Then the CPES tech support guy called me. Long story short, the idea of putting varnish onto tacky CPES only works for 2-pack varnish products (polyurethane, Bristol, etc). For one-pack varnishes like I'm using, the CPES must be allowed to fully cure, be sanded smooth and cleaned off with a water-damp rag. No one-pack varnish onto tacky CPES!
Hope this helps another varnishing newbie!

Anyway, the 2nd door has now been cleaned back and another '1st' coat of varnish applied...looks good. The 1st door now has 3 coats of varnish on & is looking great. I'll keep on coating with varnish until I get 6 coats on or the Admiral kicks me out of the garage, whichever happens first.[/QUOTE]

It is interesting to me how many times we would have saved ourselves from a lot of pain suffering if we had A, read the directions or B, called tech support for advice.
I have always allowed CPEs to cure before recoating out of fear of solvent pops and orange peal. I spray as much as possible, and problems like orange peal and solvent pops seem to manifest themselves more often when you spray instead of brush. Most varnishes are really formulated for brushing, so reducing to spray can be tricky. One of the tricks that Interlux advised was using Alcohol as a solvent for prepping the surface between coats. I notice it give the previous coat a little tooth and eliminates any possibilities contaminates like wax or finger prints screwing up the finish. Two part polys can be really fussy as to surface prep. Using the right thinner is also something often overlooked, it's hard to pay $30 a quart for their brand thinner when $10 a quart thinner from the hardware store cleans up just fine. Sometimes problems with varnish can be traced right back to using the wrong thinner. Especially in hot weather. Working time and solvent pops are usually are impacted by how fast the varnish skins up. Varnish shrinkage, ever notice how varnish tightens up over time, grain that didn't show when you walked away showed up the next morning or two days later. Solvent is still evaporating out of the finish through the skin for several days. That's why waiting the recommended time between coats is important. The finish may seem hard, but the subsurface is still curing and somewhat gummy. You take a chance recoating early, often you get by with it , when you don't you either live with the results or start over.
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Old 10-10-2014, 07:58 AM   #39
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Just likr Bob Lowe, I was using Smiths CPES in the early 80's and I spoke to Bob Smith on many occasions mainly about his produce and application techniques. I also learned CPES is not a petroleum product. It's basically tree resin with an alcohol base and a catalyst. It replaces the "sap" that leaches out of dry wood and hardens it.

I was told by Smith to always let it cure 72 hours as others were. It off gasses the entire time.

Therefore I have always let it cure. I know I'm against the grain here and will have lots of criticism but I'm going by what I was told by the chemist that created the product.

I will say I did use it first on my transom and I applied two coats, let it cure overnight and coated it with a spar varnish, then another product similar to Crystal and then a clear LP. After a year it changed color, became much less clear and month after month the grain in my teak was harder to see. It actually turned an orange color and opaque. Stripping it off was a bear. I had to sand into the teak to get to bare wood again. It does penetrate.
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Old 10-10-2014, 11:06 AM   #40
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Great recon there, Aquabelle! Thanks for the research and perseverance to get it right. No doubt you just saved me from lots of grief in the future when I tackle my doors.

Thanks much!!
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