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Old 02-23-2012, 10:01 AM   #1
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Core repair with CPES?

Has anyone here attempted this method?

http://www.boatbuilding.net/article..../10/25/1437240

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Old 02-23-2012, 10:28 AM   #2
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RE: Core repair with CPES?

Until I see independent testing or a huge amount of testimonials and years worth of common knowledge success...I'm skeptical.

Like my boat....wet core but not rotten...sure it will work as long as it sticks to the core and the deck...everything will stiffen up.

But pure rot where the wood disintegrates with a touch...unless it fiully saturates that...sets up a matrix and bonds to the shell...then it's not really a suitable substitute for complete repair...it may work or it may work for awhile...but again..I never believe a manufacturer or dealer...only the test of time.
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:08 PM   #3
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Core repair with CPES?

I've been using CPES for years now. One of the requirements stated by the manufacturer is that ALL crumbly wood must be removed for CPES to be effective. Second, CPES is NOT, repeat NOT, an adhesive epoxy. This sounds a bit weird because epoxy by its nature is an adhesive. But CPES will not do the same job as a thicker epoxy or one mixed with glass fibers or whatever.

I learned this myself when I decided to overhaul our teak shower grate on which the original adhesive in all the joints had long since failed. Stepping on it produced a chorus of squeaks and squeals as the grate flexxed. Let this go on long enough and I knew eventually something would break. On the advice of someone who turned out was wrong, I disassembled the grate and then reassembled it using CPES on all the joints. Several coats of it. When it had cured, I could take the joints apart again by hand. So I did it all again using "regular" epoxy, and today some ten years later the grate gives not a peep when someone steps on it.

CPES was created for one purpose and one purpose only. To seal the upper cells of raw wood against moisture intrusion. This is why it is so thin. It penetrates farther into the wood (the manufacturer claims) than any other type of epoxy. The principle behind it is very simple. It penetrates the wood cells, fills them, and then cures. The end result is a thin, moisture-impenetrable "shell" around the wood.

That's all it does.

So the requirements for using it are bare wood--- CPES is useless over wood with any sort of a finish on it including oil--- solid wood (by which I mean not crumbly), and absolutely, 100 percent dry wood. I have used it as a component of repairing rotting wood in our aft hatches and one of our window frames. As a COMPONENT of repairing them. Applying it was not the sum total of the repair.

First step is to dry the wood totally. And I mean totally. In the case of our wooden aft hatches it took a month of them sitting in our heated bathroom at home for the wood to thoroughly dry out. Second step was to remove all traces of finish-- paint and primer in this case--- from the underside of the hatches. Third step is to remove all the crumbly wood. All of it, every bit. In our case what was rotting was the plywood top of the hatch. The frames themselves were fine as was the teak planking on top of them. But removing the crumbly sections of plywood resulted in depressions that penetrated several plys into the wood. Fourth step was to saturate the plywood with CPES. Several times. Fifth step was to fill the depressions with a filler. I use "Fill It" which is a carve-able, shape-able, sand-able filler made by the same folks who make CPES but there are other products that would work as well. Sixth step was to sand the filler flush. Seventh step was to paint the plywood and filled areas with CPES again. Last step was to paint and prime the undersides of the hatches.

CPES will penetrate into wet wood and, being an epoxy, it will cure. But it will not provide the solidity one is after, nor will it properly provide a moisture barrier if the wood it is applied to is wet or even damp.

So far as I know--- and I'm just repeating what I have heard from shipwrights with a lot of experience repairing boats on the GB owners forum--- there is only one way to properly fix a deck with a rotting core and that is to cut out the rotting wood and replace it with new wood. Coating the new wood with CPES is a great idea and these guys all advocate that. But based on my experience with it and from everything I've read both from the manufacturer and from shipwrights and repair people who use it all the time, trying to use CPES to solidify damp, crumbly wood will not work if the goal is to retain any strength in the wood.





-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 23rd of February 2012 02:11:41 PM
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Old 02-24-2012, 04:14 AM   #4
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RE: Core repair with CPES?

Marin, is CPES there like we have as Everdure over here. Sounds very much like, as it does the same job, and yes, has no inherent gluing strength. Great as wood preserver.

https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_i...bsolutePage=12
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:30 AM   #5
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RE: Core repair with CPES?

If the deck is really rotten the cheapest is to remove the teak paint job and simply glass over the deck.

Simply using 1/4 to 1/2 inch of glass is OK for an inshore boat.

Going to an over layed foam core is better for a passage maker.

Weather waves will be breaking on the deck is the cut off.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:17 AM   #6
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RE: Core repair with CPES?

I used CPES to stop the rot from spreading in my sundeck supports. That was in 2002. So far, there is no sign of failure.
The crumbly wood was removed, CPES was applied liberally, and new wood added where needed. This was in 2x8 cantilevered supports, onto which the decking was fastened. Between the decking and the joists, I put a strip of metal and sealed the fasteners with acoustical caulking. Is 10 years a long enough test?
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:03 AM   #7
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RE: Core repair with CPES?

I've used CPES in the past with great results. Heard nothing but good from many other boaters as well.
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Old 02-25-2012, 08:11 PM   #8
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RE: Core repair with CPES?

Quote:
Peter B wrote:
Marin, is CPES there like we have as Everdure over here. Sounds very much like, as it does the same job, and yes, has no inherent gluing strength. Great as wood preserver.

https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_i...bsolutePage=12
I looked at your link but I have no idea how Everdure compares with CPES.* CPES when mixed in its 1:1 ratio has the liquid consistency of diessl fuel.* Very, very thin which is why it can penetrate into several layers of wood cells.* But your description of the properties of Everdure make it sound like a very similar product, if not identical.

While CPES claims unique ingredients and attributes, Carl (Delfin) in the past has posted a "home made" formula for a very thin expoxy that he says has the same basic characteristics as branded CPES.* So I'm sure that a comparative product could be manufactured and sold under whatever name another company wanted to use.
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:55 AM   #9
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RE: Core repair with CPES?

Sounds like the two are virtually identical. Mixed 1 : 1 and very thin, sets dry after several hours, but no structural strength - just good penetration. Everdure also is quite shiny when dry and could be mistaken for a light varnish.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:49 PM   #10
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Core repair with CPES?

Quote:
Peter B wrote:
*Everdure also is quite shiny when dry and could be mistaken for a light varnish.
*Well, that's one difference albeit an unimportant one.* CPES doesn't dry real shiny.* Several saturations will result in a bit of a sheen but not varnish-like in appearance.

The trick I have learned from people who know is to put the first coat of finish--- be it varnish, Bristol, primer for paint, whatever--- on while the last saturation of CPES is still tacky.* This is partiularly effective in the case of a bright finish like varnish or Bristol, which is what we use.


-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 26th of February 2012 01:50:21 PM
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:58 AM   #11
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RE: Core repair with CPES?

Slight correction - should have said only shiny after several coats, and a light sand in between.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:22 AM   #12
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RE: Core repair with CPES?

Quote:
Peter B wrote:
Slight correction - should have said only shiny after several coats, and a light sand in between.
Well then it sounds like CPES to me.* We don't sand between applications of CPES.* And we apply the first coat of finish while the last application of CPES is still tacky.* This was a technique I learned from the GB forum and it makes a big difference in the adhesion of the finish to the piece.

The coats of finish DO get light finish sandings, not between every coat but perhaps between every two or three coats.* And definitely before the very last one.
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
If the deck is really rotten the cheapest is to remove the teak paint job and simply glass over the deck.

Simply using 1/4 to 1/2 inch of glass is OK for an inshore boat.

Going to an over layed foam core is better for a passage maker.

Weather waves will be breaking on the deck is the cut off.
While this fix is cheap you're making a structural change to how the boat was designed, and creating problems for the next guy.

If you have the typical trawler, the deck is a series of torsion boxes, that are designed to flex a certain way. Removing and replacing the core inside the box, be it balsa or plywood, is the only way to fix it right.

The other issue to be considered is weight. Wet balsa, or wet plywood, is very heavy. A water soaked balsa coring can add much more weight than you think.

Finally, if the boat ever goes up north, the first hard freeze is going to result in a lot of problems, as water expands as it freezes.

After re-coring my balsa decks, and going overboard on the glass, I am 3" higher in the water on my 34' Taiwanese Trawler... That's how much wet balsa can hold.

Alan Robbins
1976 34' D/C MT "Sea Moose"
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