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Old 03-21-2013, 03:07 PM   #101
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Art,
If I was to use synthetic I'd buy mobil 1 and I don't think you need to worry about seals leaking. And if they did it prolly wouldn't have anything to do w the synthetic.

But it seems you've had excellent service w dino oils so why change.
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:18 PM   #102
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Hey Marin, glad to see you here. I've noticed you and hadn't said HI!
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:26 PM   #103
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Hey Marin, glad to see you here. I've noticed you and hadn't said HI!
Since the project I was part of has ended I'm trying hard to wind down my participation in this forum but it's like trying to kick a habit.. So far I've been trying to quit cold turkey but it hasn't worked. I guess the next step is counseling and perhaps even surgery.
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:01 PM   #104
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Cold Turkey is hard to do. Wild Turkey over ice and a Churchill cigar will help.
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:25 PM   #105
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Suggesting that we each cut up a bunch of oil filters to see how they are made and what they filter doesn't really do us much good as we won't typically have a bunch of used oil filters lying around the house.

Why don't you go ahead and tell us about it or better yet, post some photos.

Sorry don't have any cut oil filter pics on hand just foul diesel fuel tanks, the link provided after my post should help some, Wix is a good Co. All there filters have metal inner caps not cardboard like many very popular brands, My point on the oil filter thing was to shed some light on how oil filters are just as important as what type of oil to purchase if not more important, Most older diesels like Fords and Perkins use simple cheep automotive type oil filters, many filters have a relief valve in the head of the filter so the filter wont blow out the paper and cardboard backing on cold starts or with a dirty filter, Most of time its carbon from blow by that contaminates oil and plugs filters, My thoughts are if you own a diesel that the oil gets black within the first 50 hrs, its better to change the filter more often than buy expensive synth oil, The purchase a oil centrifuge to pull the carbon out is also something to think about, Carbon is one of the hardest elements on the planet and it really doesn't matter if its cheep or expensive engine oil once the oil filter relief spring opens and unfiltered oil eats up your stuff.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:24 PM   #106
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Art, If I was to use synthetic I'd buy mobil 1 and I don't think you need to worry about seals leaking. And if they did it prolly wouldn't have anything to do w the synthetic.

But it seems you've had excellent service w dino oils so why change.
I agree, Eric - That's why to date I've not changed to syn oil in caring for my well running, flat tappet classic gasoline engines. This has been a pretty interesting thread though. I'm not planning to change from dino oil any time soon. So far I've not found a "truly compelling" reason for syn oil to displace dino and therefore become my ongoing buddy for long-life classic engines... as their internal lube-barriers! But, maybe that compelling reason will some day be brought to light... Patience is a virtue!
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:27 PM   #107
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I thought that is was normal for diesel oil to get black quickly. No?
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:35 PM   #108
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I thought that is was normal for diesel oil to get black quickly. No?
I have the same question as my oil is never black! I will admit, however, to having OCD when it comes to oil changes. I change mine annually and recently have only been putting about 40 hrs. a year on the boat. When I turned 70, my enthusiasm ebbed considerably relative to boating. (This year, I'm really trying to get my Mojo back.)
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:39 PM   #109
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I use Lucas. I've used it for years in all my boats, gearbox's vehicles etc. like franks redhot sauce, I put that shit in everything!
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:06 PM   #110
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I thought that is was normal for diesel oil to get black quickly. No?
Ours certainly does and always had since we bought the boat in 1998. Granted, if I shine a flashlight on the oil on the dipstick it's more clear/brown than black, but for all practical purposes, it looks black. The same was true of my wife's VW diesel Rabbit.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:46 PM   #111
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I thought that is was normal for diesel oil to get black quickly. No?
Indeed. The black is carbon. An abrasive.
Change oil often ...... much more likely to happen using dino.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:53 PM   #112
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I thought that is was normal for diesel oil to get black quickly. No?


Good question Tom.... Providing you get all the oil oil out when servicing and the service is done at the proper times, even diesel oil should stay clean, When oil overheats it will darken and have a burnt smell , Most engine ware surfaces like bearings, piston skirts, rings , cylinder hone etchings are not black, with the exception of old black iron rings and even then there is not enough volume to blacken the oil, For the most part its ring blow by and carbon deposits from combustion that makes the black mess, Engines that have a small % of blow by have cleaner oil, older or overloaded engines or improper fuel injector spray patterns will turn it black quick, A quick cylinder leak down test will shed some light on ring seal, I often see boats with too much prop pitch cause engine oil to turn black before the service time is due, If your oil turns black fast something is wrong, This does not mean your engine is going to fail , It means that the state of mechanical efficiency is lower than normal, For the most part fuel injection has a lot to do with black oil as well as over all engine life, Bad injection spray patterns promote carbon and carbon eats engines.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:54 PM   #113
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I have read more than one oil filter study that concluded that Fram was the worst of the ones tested.

So where does that leave us? Scratching our heads I guess.
Sounds like you need to cut one open.

I have. I will never use a fram again.

Notes from my maintenance log 6 years ago when I was fighting a very slight emulsion of water in my oil on my old engine. (I've repowered since)

4810 hrs. Fram PH3519A. PO bought as spare, gave it a try. Oil filter overpressurized and blew up. 10 liters of oil in bilge. Cut open filter. Incredibly cheap stamped construction and convoluted flow path for oil to bypass. Never buy again. NAPA (WIX) filter has proper relief system and coil spring.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:20 PM   #114
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I thought that is was normal for diesel oil to get black quickly. No?
Yes, it is soot from blow-by (or with newer engines, EGR). Soot is very fine (<.05 micron), relatively soft and spherical shaped.

The "blackness" of the oil is typically a function of the amount of dispersent additives (detergent) in the oil. The idea is to keep the teeny tiny soot particles from conglomerating or agglomerating (I forgets the difference) forming a bigger particle or sludge on the metal parts.

As long as your detergent is not depleted, it is likely OK. We used to do blotter tests, but there are much higher tech ways of determining soot load now.

Low or non-detergent oil stays "clean".
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:27 PM   #115
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Oopps, I forgot one ... engine room free air, very important on turbo Diesels
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:02 PM   #116
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The black is "soot"? What exactly is soot?

Is the black not carbon?
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:18 PM   #117
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Soot is partially combusted carbon. It really messes with trying to determine ISO cleanliness standards and is hard to separate out from more threatening contaminates such as silica (dirt) and metal in diesel oil. Most the lubricants I deal with in my Reliability Engineering role don't have a heavy soot load so I'm not too conversant on it, and my tribology training is likely old and outdated. Maybe sunchaser could shed more light on it. He seems to have a heavy equipment background
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:42 AM   #118
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Soot is partially combusted carbon. It really messes with trying to determine ISO cleanliness standards and is hard to separate out from more threatening contaminates such as silica (dirt) and metal in diesel oil. Most the lubricants I deal with in my Reliability Engineering role don't have a heavy soot load so I'm not too conversant on it, and my tribology training is likely old and outdated. Maybe sunchaser could shed more light on it. He seems to have a heavy equipment background
So far right on the money from my experience.

While exccesive soot is not normal there's gonna be some and if the oil is doing it's job and you do yours of proper monitoring/interval maintenance....it's what the oil copanies and engine deigners expect.

Here's one of the more simple explanations of soot I've read...

http://www.gofurtherwithfs.com/White...%20Engines.pdf
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:59 AM   #119
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Good stuff! Thanks Craig and Mike!

I found a local shop here in Raleigh to do an oil analysis for me and can turn it over in 24 hours. My next boat project(s) after we get back from our vacation (Playa Del Carmen) is annual engine maintenance. We'll see where we are with that. I'm excited and scared to find out what it will say.

One thing Craig is correct about is that I doubt I get all the oil out with the hand pump built onto the engine. However, I do plan on buying an evac pump this year to change the tranny (or is that gearbox) fluid. I will probably try to dig into the corners of the oil pan and do some sucky-sucky. I would bet there is still a quart in there and a pile of metal shaving.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:12 AM   #120
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Sounds like you need to cut one open.
............
I leave that sort of testing to the experts. It would do me little good unless I cut several different brands open and I still wouldn't know what I was looking for.

If I really wanted to see the inside of one, I could probably find a photo on the Internet.
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