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Old 03-20-2013, 11:00 AM   #81
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BL - "... & drinks stowed..." That sounds maybe dangerous - how many "drinks" do you usually have before departure?? "Stowed" mean in your hand or in a close proximity gimbaled drink holder??

Just joshing ya... Motor ON!!

Usually, the only provisions brought aboard are a cooler full of beverages. I no longer live in Annapolis, but I do still adhere to the adage, "A drinking town with a boating problem."
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Old 03-20-2013, 12:05 PM   #82
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No I said just the opposite - it is OK to feel good about the oil you use.
Sorry Tom. I forgot what I said.

Your point about the thermostat controlling the temperature of the coolant re the OP claim that his coolant temp dropped 5 degrees kinda throws water on the idea that the synthetic oil causes less friction. But it IS interesting (at least) that the other engine did the same thing after the change to synthetic on the other engine. The thermostat does control the temp of the coolant but (I think) not absolutely. But if the syn lube was causing the change one would think it would need to be a very big change to cause a 5 degree change in the coolant that is being heavily controlled by the thermostat.

Also I wonder how much truth there is/was in that Amzoil propaganda I bookmarked and can no longer find on TF about the viscosity improvers in multi-vis oils causing sludge buildup over time?

Here's most of it.

"As already mentioned, VI improving additives can shear back under pressure and high heat conditions leaving the motor oil unable to protect the engine properly under high heat conditions and cause sludging. Also there is a limit to how much viscosity improving additives can be added without affecting the rest of the motor oil's chemistry. Auto manufacturers have moved away from some motor oils that require a lot of viscosity improving additives, like the 10W-40 and 20W-50 motor oils, to blends that require less viscosity additives like the 5W-20, 5W-30 and 10W-30 motor oils. Because stress loads on multi viscosity motor oils can also cause thinning many racers choose to use a straight weight petroleum racing motor oil or a PAO based Synthetic which do not have the VI additives. But only the Group IV (4) PAO based synthetics generally don't need VI additives."

I use muli-vis in my cars but this leaves me think'in I should start using straight weight SAE30 or 40 oil. Before we had multi-vis people used 20, 30 and sometimes 40 weight oil. Haven't seen 20 weight oil for a very long time. Multi-vis was something people started using in the winter where it got down to 0 degrees in the winter. Nobody else seemed to need it and it was looked at like we look at synthetic oil now. Just like our boats I don't think we need it unless we experience hard starting from the cold.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:58 PM   #83
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My brother-in-law, who was head chemist at Phillips 66, said the refineries can't make an oil with all the molecules the same. When you buy 20W for example, it has 10 to 30W molecules but the majority is 20W. He said the reason they started multi weights was more so to be more accurate as to what the oil is.

That was in the 70's and he died that decade. I'm sure things have changed since then but that was his explanation.

All oil has improved over the years and with computer controlled refineries I'm sure they are better at accuracy.
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:50 PM   #84
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I love oil posts... which is better and all the how & whys, lots of posts on many subjects from economy to warm up time, I wish I had more time to play buy I have to pump a lot of diesel tomorrow so its a real early start and it took a wile to go thru the 5 pages to get to this point... so I would Like to add just some points on oil, Almost any oil will work providing it meets the engine mans spec's, But... Blow by.... oil contamination... oil temp.... fuel dilution and filter quality should be addressed with some basic engine design factors to form an opinion on what oil to use, If you guys want to see some scary stuff.. just cut open some oil filters and see how they are made, what they filter or don't filter again thanks for the info guys it was good reading
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:11 PM   #85
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I mentioned bypass 2 micron filters.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:15 AM   #86
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fuel dilution and filter quality should be addressed with some basic engine design factors to form an opinion on what oil to use, If you guys want to see some scary stuff.. just cut open some oil filters and see how they are made, what they filter or don't filter
Foundation of keeping enclosed mechanical operations in best condition, i.e gears, bearings... or other items requiring lubrication-barriers: Keep the appropriately correct lubricants clean and in good condition with consistent fluid changes at proper intervals; replaced or cleaned filters if so equipped.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:42 AM   #87
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................., If you guys want to see some scary stuff.. just cut open some oil filters and see how they are made, what they filter or don't filter ........
Suggesting that we each cut up a bunch of oil filters to see how they are made and what they filter doesn't really do us much good as we won't typically have a bunch of used oil filters lying around the house.

Why don't you go ahead and tell us about it or better yet, post some photos.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:50 AM   #88
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I met a boat mechanic yesterday that switched to synth in the 80s. He was racing dune buggies with aircooled VW engines and his always ran at 270. His friend talked him into switching to Amsoil synth and his temp dropped to 160 and never went higher again. He runs it on all of his boats and most of his clients. He is known as the Hino guru and travels servicing Bayliners.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:02 AM   #89
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I met a boat mechanic yesterday that switched to synth in the 80s. He was racing dune buggies with aircooled VW engines and his always ran at 270. His friend talked him into switching to Amsoil synth and his temp dropped to 160 and never went higher again. He runs it on all of his boats and most of his clients. He is known as the Hino guru and travels servicing Bayliners.
Outstanding! I have a friend that races motorcycles and he also only uses synthetic. I think most racers have switched over.

I once read a test of oil filters and I can't say it was funded by Fram but they won hands down on several factors. 1, the ability to trap particles and 2, the amount they can hold before going into bypass mode.
The worse filters were Autolite and the generic cheap ones. After that I quit going to service stations for oil changes because they grabbed the cheap filters. I took my own Fram to a station and they refused to use it, saying if something went wrong they would be liable.
It was a Trans Am with a Corvette engine and it had to be lifted to even get an oil pan under it. I hated doing oil changes on that car.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:24 AM   #90
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If I'm not mistaken, Prolong is an oil additive that is positive charged oil and it sticks to the block (negative charged) like a magnet and can stay there for an estimated 2000 miles. I have never tried it, but for people who only use dino oil, that is an option for reduced wear on cold starts.
That sounds very like the product Bi-Tron, which was sold 15 odd hers ago as an additive via network marketing. I got involved for a while, and although I just proved, once again, I'm a hopeless salesman, the product certainly lived up to its claims. We were told the technology was actually developed by the Russians, who got sick of their tanks being wrecked, or rather their gear boxes and/or engines of their tanks being wrecked by land mines laid by the Afghan resistance when they were silly enough to try to conquer that country, so they developed this oil with positively charged molecules that were attracted to the negatively charged engine metal. The hotter it gets, the more negatively charged = attracted the oil more strongly. It's allowed a gutted tank to drive home without wrecking the mechanicals. They showed demos of cars with oil drained out being driven without seizing up for long periods. Their spray on penetrating oil was amazing. I still have some I use on stiff joints, sliding doors etc. last for months.

When Castrol started using the same technology in the Magnatec, it sort of killed Bi-Tron off I suspect, as it sort of died away. I use it in my vehicles as well as the boat. I think it performs as well as the full synthetics, but is cheaper.

Coming back tho to the point you made some have trouble accepting...that of the temp dropping from the reduced friction. That was also something noticed when using Bi-Tron. It did drop the av running temp by a small but measurable amount, so I suspect the thermostat, being a fairly crude temp control, does not have the last or total say in engine temp.
That should provoke a bit of discourse. However, I'll get in first with how that can happen. The thermostat opens at a predetermined minimum temp, not a max, so probably most engines have the coolant temp go on to rise a few degrees above that minimum until it reaches an equilibrium with the ability of the cooling system to arrest further rise. We have all noticed I'm sure how the boat (or you car for that matter) runs a bit different on the gauge in cold weather compared to hot. So an oil that actually cuts friction more, could well see it not rise as much, but still not lower it enough to cause the thermostat to close...my case rests...
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:04 AM   #91
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Ya know...

After years of carefully reading/discerning/following many recommendations for “lubrication types” from vehicle owning novices to racing pros to factory engineers to OEMs to lubrication manufacturers and from other “experts”... I’m getting ever closer to trying a high grade synthetic oil in one of my classic flat tappet high performance car/truck engines, or in one of my standard power range flat tappet twin screw marine V8s, or in one of my roller bearing lifter newer model auto/SUV that have relatively high mileage. Because all my engines have only been high grade dino oiled for years I simply wonder if upon repeat usage of syn oil it may begin to open up currently closed (by years of accumulated gunk) deficits in seals and might even ruin the seal materials in the 1967, 1977, and 1985 (Buick Wildcat, Tolly Twins, Chevy 4WD – respectively).

Probably for closest check regarding difference of syn compared to dino oil would be to continue dino oil in one and begin syn oil in the other of the Tolly’s twins. That said... I’m a stickler in keeping engine compartment clean and bilge oil free. Sure would be bummer to have one of the twin 350/255 hp engines begin to leak oil out its seals. Also, although both engines are running equally strong – port had complete rebuild and starboard had just complete top end rebuild some few hundred hours ago... so... would the dino – vs – syn test twixt the twins be slanted in any way??? I guess I’d try the syn oil in the port engine that had complete rebuild.

I don’t alter my ongoing successful MO's easily and adhere to the money saving fact: “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it!”

I also adhere to the quote I copied below from my post # 46... So, if I do try syn oil in one or another of my engines I will follow the intent stated therein. And, when/if I do try synthetic oil I’ll post my conclusions on TF; after a fair amount of time and a number of oil changes.

Post # 46: “Foundation of keeping enclosed mechanical operations in best condition, i.e gears, bearings... or other items requiring lubrication-barriers: Keep the appropriately correct lubricants clean and in good condition with consistent fluid changes at proper intervals; replaced or cleaned filters if so equipped."
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:36 AM   #92
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.............I once read a test of oil filters and I can't say it was funded by Fram but they won hands down on several factors. 1, the ability to trap particles and 2, the amount they can hold before going into bypass mode.............
I have read more than one oil filter study that concluded that Fram was the worst of the ones tested.

So where does that leave us? Scratching our heads I guess.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:40 AM   #93
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Daddyo wrote about his friend " He was racing dune buggies with aircooled VW engines and his always ran at 270." I assume that was degrees and running that hot (like I did w UL aircraft) synthetic oils are a huge benefit. But our lightly loaded diesels are very cool by comparison and well served by dino oils.

Art to clean out your high millage engines just use a bit of "Sea Foam" in the oil just before a change. No need to buy synthetic just for cleanliness. And the cleanliness your'e talking about may only result from "previous experience". You need a cleaner (if you need anything) not an oil that runs clean now. For more cleanliness just change more often.

Re the friction question I think I addressed that a long time ago during my motorcycling and flying days. As I recall there's no difference worth mentioning.

Re the thermostat if there was suddenly less friction the coolant would cool, the thermostat would close to bring the temp back up and maintain temp (that's what it's designed to do) and the result would be no change as sunchaser said or implied a few days ago. If you want to see if the engine is running cooler w syn oil measure the temp of the lube oil.

On my boat I think I'll stay w straight weight oil w/o vis improvers changing about twice as often and consider installing a bypass filter. The bypass filter should do me a lot more good than either multi-vis or syn oil.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:45 AM   #94
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I read AC Delco was the best in one test. Problem is, finding them. Most places for boat filters only carry a few brands. I can only find one brand for my Lehmans so it doesn't matter for me.

I have thought about installing a bypass filter. The cost is keeping me from it. I filter my fuel to 2 microns, why not my oil?
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:48 AM   #95
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I read AC Delco was the best in one test. Problem is, finding them. Most places for boat filters only carry a few brands. I can only find one brand for my Lehmans so it doesn't matter for me.

I have thought about installing a bypass filter. The cost is keeping me from it. I filter my fuel to 2 microns, why not my oil?
My Lehman hads a remote oil location adapter. It fits the equivalent of a (FORD) Motorcraft FL-1A...every make filter out there has an equivalent and are very easy to find in just about anyplace that sells auto stuff..I have even seen them in grocery stores...
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:58 AM   #96
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Engine Oil Filter Study

Here is the test with AC Delco rating high.

Click on the link at the bottom and the conclusion page comes up. There it says Fram is bad.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:25 PM   #97
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I read AC Delco was the best in one test. Problem is, finding them. Most places for boat filters only carry a few brands. I can only find one brand for my Lehmans so it doesn't matter for me.............
WIX makes equivalent filters for my Volvo and they are stocked at my local Parks auto parts store. Perhaps they make a replacement for your filter as well.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:58 PM   #98
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Art to clean out your high millage engines just use a bit of "Sea Foam" in the oil just before a change. No need to buy synthetic just for cleanliness. And the cleanliness your'e talking about may only result from "previous experience". You need a cleaner (if you need anything) not an oil that runs clean now. For more cleanliness just change more often.
Eric - I use Sea Foam in my engines and well as high grade dino oil that I often change with new filters. They are clean internally (externally too - lol). I might try syn oil for its so called added "magnetic" attraction capabilities to better keep a lube-barrier on all surfaces. The question I have is: By using syn oil on a repeat basis for years on end in my old VG condition classic gas engines (land-based and marine) would the syn oil eventually ruin their old-school seal materials and begin oil leaks that would eventually require complete seal replacement or engine rebuild to stop the leaks???

Additionally, I agree with you that the thermostat in engines is the “engine’s temperature” determining factor... not the lubricant... or for that matter... neither the weather temperature nor type/amount of coolant used. No matter what is introduced into or around an engine the heat activated thermostat is a very close judge as to what temperature the engine must maintain... as per manufacturer’s specs. So... I have a hard time swallowing reports of extremely reduced engine temps due to different oils used. Unless, of course, the engine was previously overheating way beyond what its fully open thermostat was able to accomplish... then the added lubricity of some different type oil may enable some added cooling effect. But, if as mentioned by others the engines were running with such high temps previously it seems to me there was a disaster in the making that had more items at fault than just type of oil used and the engine should seize up.
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:22 PM   #99
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Wix is the only brand I can buy from one place and Baldwin from another.
My Ford Lehman's have the canister style filter, not the spin on.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:55 PM   #100
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We use NAPA filters, which are simply Wix filters with NAPA branding, in all our vehicles except the Subaru. We use Baldwin oil and fuel filters on the GB except in the Racors in which we use Racor elements.
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