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Old 03-19-2013, 03:37 PM   #61
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Just a very short "Google) on this subject brings up some very interesting facts, supported by some unimpeachable sources.

Also, some "old wives tales" and myths are exposed.

HowStuffWorks "The Science of Synthetic Oils"
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:38 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by psneeld
If anyone here can start their engine and get all their lines off and underway before there's oil in all parts of their engine I'd be amazed. Idling out of the marina is better for it than just sitting there letting it warm up.

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Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
I couldn't agree more!
But - Who bothers to start their engines before dropping all dock attachments, pwr cord and primary lines etc... Except a spring line or two – for a then quick get-away when decision to depart is made? At least that’s how I operate.

I'm firm believer that idle till at least partially if not fully warmed-up before applying load to any type of engine is simply good policy. Also, I like to be standing atop engines as they warm (not walking around untying) so I can listen closely to the engines’ music and tell if ther’re starting to perform "on key"... or not.

With that said - You can tell I'm pretty much a better safe than sorry type guy when it comes to averting expensive/time-consuming mechanical breakdowns. That's called "Da Nature of The Beast!" LOL
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:44 PM   #63
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I have never seen a boater do that. NEVER!!
What? Motor out without fogging up the marina with his exhaust?

I see it all the time by cruisers, and professional mariners who know that diesels won't generally warm up without some load on them and no harm is being done.

Here's straight from the Yanmar website

How long should I warm up the engine for before moving off?
Fresh water cooled engines: Today's engines do not require long warm up periods. By the time you start the engine, check all clear, cast off and get out of the marina or in a clear area the temp will be over 60deg C, 140deg F, you can apply full power to get on the plane. Displacement vessels can go straight to cruising power once clear of the marina.


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Old 03-19-2013, 03:50 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
Just a very short "Google) on this subject brings up some very interesting facts, supported by some unimpeachable sources.

Also, some "old wives tales" and myths are exposed.

HowStuffWorks "The Science of Synthetic Oils"
Thanks, that's a great article and covers most of what has been discussed here.
I liked the part about electric motors having bearings with synthetic lube.
Call me crazy, but I put Mobil 1 in my oil can and use that for my AC water pump and fan motor lube. It quietened them down a lot. Now I'm looking for other uses for it.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:53 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
What? Motor out without fogging up the marina with his exhaust?

I see it all the time by cruisers, and professional mariners who know that diesels won't generally warm up without some load on them and no harm is being done.

Here's straight from the Yanmar website

How long should I warm up the engine for before moving off?
Fresh water cooled engines: Today's engines do not require long warm up periods. By the time you start the engine, check all clear, cast off and get out of the marina or in a clear area the temp will be over 60deg C, 140deg F, you can apply full power to get on the plane. Displacement vessels can go straight to cruising power once clear of the marina.

Yanmar Marine Engine Help
Respectfully I say... just because: “Today's engines do not require long warm up periods.“ Does not mean a full warm-up is bad (or maybe even better for any engine) before leaving dock.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:54 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
What? Motor out without fogging up the marina with his exhaust?

I see it all the time by cruisers, and professional mariners who know that diesels won't generally warm up without some load on them and no harm is being done.

Here's straight from the Yanmar website

How long should I warm up the engine for before moving off?
Fresh water cooled engines: Today's engines do not require long warm up periods. By the time you start the engine, check all clear, cast off and get out of the marina or in a clear area the temp will be over 60deg C, 140deg F, you can apply full power to get on the plane. Displacement vessels can go straight to cruising power once clear of the marina.



Yanmar Marine Engine Help





I think I said one of the benefits was a huge reduction of smoke on start up. Also 75% less sheen on the water.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:01 PM   #67
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OK...show me ONE manual that recommends a temperature at which you should start motoring at...

You can't and I will show dozens that will say...wait until normal oil pressure is established until applying a load and the other rule is no full throttle till normal operating temp.

Maybe you can find one out there but I just read over ten, including my Lehman manual that all say the EXACT thing as in the above paragraph.

No one is saying bring her right up to 80-90 percent load...but sitting at the dock smoking everyone out is rude and not needed.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:16 PM   #68
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ut - Who bothers to start their engines before dropping all dock attachments, pwr cord and primary lines etc...
We load the boat, do the engine room checks, remove the groundpower cable, some of the docklines, and do the other things we do to get the boat ready to go. When all this is done we start the engines and confirm the exhaust waterflow from each engine as it's started.

Once the engines are running we turn on the electronics and set them up. Then we take in the remaining lines and leave the slip.

So the engines probably idle in the slip about ten minutes or so before we get underway.
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:19 PM   #69
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OK...show me ONE manual that recommends a temperature at which you should start motoring at...

You can't and I will show dozens that will say...wait until normal oil pressure is established until applying a load and the other rule is no full throttle till normal operating temp.

Maybe you can find one out there but I just read over ten, including my Lehman manual that all say the EXACT thing as in the above paragraph.

No one is saying bring her right up to 80-90 percent load...but sitting at the dock smoking everyone out is rude and not needed.
Agreed, regarding some boat’s engines: However, my 350's don't use oil, run clean, and don't smoke during idle/warm-up... or at any other time (I’ve carbs’ automatic chokes well adjusted). And, I dock bow in so, amongst other reasons, exhaust is not toward the main dock ramp. We’re lucky; our dock provides wide open area to rear of our boat!
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:22 PM   #70
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We load the boat, do the engine room checks, remove the groundpower cable, some of the docklines, and do the other things we do to get the boat ready to go. When all this is done we start the engines and confirm the exhaust waterflow from each engine as it's started.

Once the engines are running we turn on the electronics and set them up. Then we take in the remaining lines and leave the slip.

So the engines probably idle in the slip about ten minutes or so before we get underway.
That the way! Perfect time for basic warm up!
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Old 03-19-2013, 04:53 PM   #71
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That the way! Perfect time for basic warm up!
10 minutes and my Lehman doesn't even show movement yet in the temp gauge...100 deg...so thats all I was saying...its not really a warmup but neither a start it and floor it either...
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:11 PM   #72
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But - Who bothers to start their engines before dropping all dock attachments, pwr cord and primary lines etc... Except a spring line or two – for a then quick get-away when decision to depart is made? At least that’s how I operate.
Me. Window covers are off, oil, tranny and coolant checked, stuff hauled to the flybridge & drinks stowed before I start the engine. But the docklines & shorepower are still connected. A check to see that water is coming out of the exhaust and oil and/or water is not being flung around the engine room and then the showepower and docklines come off.

With my cars and trucks I always wait until they drop off fast idle before I put 'em in gear and move off.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:07 PM   #73
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Me. Window covers are off, oil, tranny and coolant checked, stuff hauled to the flybridge & drinks stowed before I start the engine. But the docklines & shorepower are still connected. A check to see that water is coming out of the exhaust and oil and/or water is not being flung around the engine room and then the showepower and docklines come off.

With my cars and trucks I always wait until they drop off fast idle before I put 'em in gear and move off.

BL - "... & drinks stowed..." That sounds maybe dangerous - how many "drinks" do you usually have before departure?? "Stowed" mean in your hand or in a close proximity gimbaled drink holder??

Just joshing ya... Motor – ON!!
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:01 PM   #74
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10 minutes and my Lehman doesn't even show movement yet in the temp gauge...100 deg...so thats all I was saying...its not really a warmup but neither a start it and floor it either...
I agree. My routine pretty much matches Marin's.

Lines stay attached until both engines are running. I don't leave the slip until I've confirmed oil pressure (immediately on start-up) and water flow out the exhaust (immediately after confirming oil pressure). I idle out (1200 RPM max) until my temps reach 140. This usually takes less than 5 minutes. Then I run at reduced power 15-1700 RPM until 170, then cruise at 2000 RPM and temps then stabilize at 180. When I'm 10 minutes after push back, I'm already cruising.

Sorry for the detour on this thread...
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:47 PM   #75
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I thought thinner oil was required because of the closer tolerances in modern engines due to advanced manufacturing techniques. Could still be fuel economy related I guess. Or more HP. Or the same HP from less fuel, or ... whatever. But what do I know?
Less friction = better fuel economy. I can't prove or disprove it, but that's what they claim.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:08 PM   #76
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Less friction may be a product of lower viscosity. It would be hard to measure the viscosity of the oil in an engine while it is running. And if this is less viscosity you'd get the same from dino oil. But some of these tests are well engineered tests ...... and some aren't.

BL,
You could probably verify that by looking up the rebuild specs for new engines and old. The ability to machine parts w less variation and clearance may require thinner less viscous oil but an oil of sufficient viscosity is still needed to keep the parts apart. I'm think'in closer tolerances would permit engines to be built more ideally but I don't see how closer tolerances has anything tondo nw syn oil.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:33 PM   #77
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If anyone here can start their engine and get all their lines off and underway before there's oil in all parts of their engine I'd be amazed. Idling out of the marina is better for it than just sitting there letting it warm up. You can argue it but for every person that doesn't think so there's one that does.

Many diesel engines would take forever to warm up past even 100 degrees just sitting in the slip at idle....I never could get my Cat 3208s past 100 until I started moving.

The average diesel pickup engine gets started and driven away at much higher than idle and survives just fine for hundreds of thousands of miles.
and we are speaking of diesels, something GM is little experienced at.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:45 PM   #78
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I use the oil the engine's builder originally put into it or as they recommended. And so far, no artificial oil.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:37 AM   #79
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Where is the scientific evidence to prove synthetic oil does not protect against corrosion?
From what I read, fossil oil's molecule is round and it rolls off metal when it's not under pressure to be there. Hence the ads by those oil additive companies where the worse thing for engine wear is a cold start. There is no oil in the bearings, cylinder walls, valve train, etc. until the oil pump pushes the oil there.

I watch my neighbors get in their cars every morning and do a cold start and before I can count to two they have it in gear and are driving away. That causes engine wear. This is another reason engine mfg's went to lower viscosity oil. 30W takes probably 120 seconds to get all the way through the oil passages, bearing surfaces and valve train. 0 Wh 15 can get there in 45 seconds.

I learned synthetic oil's molecule is long and thin. It has a magnet on one end and is super slick on the other end. When it attaches to metal it doesn't come off. Think of it like hair on a cat. You can touch the cat but you can't touch it's skin.
Capthead, that point sounds very much like the principle behind Castrol's Magnatec, which I confess to using in my Lehman 120, of 1975 vintage, and it works fine, and I do so because of the claimed better cold start wear reduction, because it 'sticks' magnetically to the metal. It appears full synthetics also do this, so I see nothing against using them if the cost is not an issue, which longer service intervals suggest would not be significant anyway.
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:46 AM   #80
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If I'm not mistaken, Prolong is an oil additive that is positive charged oil and it sticks to the block (negative charged) like a magnet and can stay there for an estimated 2000 miles. I have never tried it, but for people who only use dino oil, that is an option for reduced wear on cold starts.
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