Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-19-2013, 10:40 AM   #41
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,711
It's interesting to me that Daddo's talk'in about "Amzoil SAE30".
Since synthetic oil has the properties of multi-vis oil w/o any viscosity improvers added I would think an SAE 30 non-MV oil would be nonexistent.

Tom you criticize doing things that make us feel good w/o gaining any real good as undesirable but that's the real reason we boat is to feel good. Feeling good about what we feed our engines is probably more cost effective than boating itself. And remember that radial tires were on the market a long time before general acceptance was achieved.

Capthead I highly suspect that the lower temperatures you measured were due to different viscosities of the dino oil and the synthetic under the dynamic conditions you measured. Can't remember what temp you measured ... I'll go look.
Argument? These kind of threads have the appearance of an argument but we frequently really like to kick this kind of thing around and most of us learn something or a great deal. I like to think of them as a "yea but what about this" talk/discussion but arguments can evolve.
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 10:43 AM   #42
Guru
 
Daddyo's Avatar


 
City: Cruising East Coast US
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Grace
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
That's fine and when Volvo comes out with a recommendation for extended oil change intervals with synthetic oil, I'll consider changing.

The new cars use synthetic oil (and often very thin oil) to meet the government regulations for fuel economy.

So your saying synthetic will give you better fuel economy. gotcha!!
__________________

__________________
Mark Bowerman
Brokerage owner and cruiser
Esse Quam Videri
http://graceyachting.com/
Daddyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 10:57 AM   #43
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Late to the party but have been hunting, four wheeling and camping for almost 30 years with 4 gentleman whom truly are master mechanics(2 automotive, 1 diesel, and 1 custom vehicle fabricator). I've sat around the campfire and listened to the debates back and forth over the issue of vehicle lubrication more times than I can count. The takeaway from all this is best summed up in Tom's post #35.

The biggest PITA they related where customers coming in waxing eloquent over the virtues of Slick 50 or any one of the other snake oil remedies. Tough to convince a customer that just paid upwards of $20 a quart that they'd be better off without it. Lack of maintenance kills engines not off the shelf dino oil.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 11:00 AM   #44
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capthead View Post
When did I argue?
Ya know... I've read through this entire thread and really appreciate all the input. Also, I do not feel there were any real argumentative posts here... but rather strong, detailed discussions that laid layers of lubrication info open for all of us to read.

TF sometimes appears to get arguments started. I call them disagreements in context of thought patterns. One thing good about net confabs is no chance of punching, kicking, or even slapping! i.e. Plenty of communications w/ no physical bruises... just mildly pushy icons if desired - LOL

Such as:
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 11:11 AM   #45
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
My experience with Mobil 1 in gasoline engines is an immediate power difference, a quieter engine, and cooler. On my carbureted engines the idle was higher. To me, that points to less friction. As to fuel savings, I was disappointed it was a very small amount better but then, I don't drive for fuel economy.

I never had a seal leak on any of my cars, ever.

When I bought the Heads Up it came with a Johnson 4 HP outboard and that was the hardest starting engine ever cold. Once you warmed it up, it would restart with one or two pulls. I used a motorcycle racing 2 stroke oil in my other outboards as a mixing oil with the gas so I tried it in that Johnson.

Before I made the change, I pulled the spark plug and noted the condition. It was black and had a lot of carbon build up but I placed it back in the engine without cleaning it. I have a 3 gallon gas can I use in my dinghy and after the second fill the engine was starting cold with one to two pulls and warm on the first pull. After finishing my third tank I pulled the spark plug to inspect it and I was amazed to see it had cleaned it's self and it was a light grey color.

I think it was a 66 or 67 engine and was with the boat all it's life. I never found any paperwork on the engine but I kept it until 1999 when I bought a new Johnson 8 HP.

I don't remember the brand of that 2 stroke oil but I bought it at a Yamaha motorcycle shop as marine stores didn't sell synthetic 2 stroke oil.

Now I wish I had made photographic documentation of that with a video showing the starting.
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 11:15 AM   #46
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capn Craig View Post
... but all the literature failed to mention that it didn't protect against corrosion like the dino either. I might have been OK had I fogged the engine in the spring with dino 2 stroke, but who knew. The second season was plagued by poor mileage and performance. I pulled the head to investigate why the compression was down, and the cylinder walls made the cause obvious.
Capn Craig - That is one of the most important differences I've learned regarding syn - vs - dino oils. TY for posting that! I'm still an advocate of high quality dino oils! - Art
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 11:21 AM   #47
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
Late to the party but have been hunting, four wheeling and camping for almost 30 years with 4 gentleman whom truly are master mechanics(2 automotive, 1 diesel, and 1 custom vehicle fabricator). I've sat around the campfire and listened to the debates back and forth over the issue of vehicle lubrication more times than I can count. The takeaway from all this is best summed up in Tom's post #35.

The biggest PITA they related where customers coming in waxing eloquent over the virtues of Slick 50 or any one of the other snake oil remedies. Tough to convince a customer that just paid upwards of $20 a quart that they'd be better off without it. Lack of maintenance kills engines not off the shelf dino oil.
THANKS CP!

Lack of maintenance kills engines not off the shelf dino oil. - BINGO!!!

Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 11:48 AM   #48
Curmudgeon
 
BaltimoreLurker's Avatar
 
City: Stoney Creek, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moon Dance
Vessel Model: 1974 34' Marine Trader Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
The new cars use synthetic oil (and often very thin oil) to meet the government regulations for fuel economy.

I thought thinner oil was required because of the closer tolerances in modern engines due to advanced manufacturing techniques. Could still be fuel economy related I guess. Or more HP. Or the same HP from less fuel, or ... whatever. But what do I know?
BaltimoreLurker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 12:02 PM   #49
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
Where is the scientific evidence to prove synthetic oil does not protect against corrosion?
From what I read, fossil oil's molecule is round and it rolls off metal when it's not under pressure to be there. Hence the ads by those oil additive companies where the worse thing for engine wear is a cold start. There is no oil in the bearings, cylinder walls, valve train, etc. until the oil pump pushes the oil there.

I watch my neighbors get in their cars every morning and do a cold start and before I can count to two they have it in gear and are driving away. That causes engine wear. This is another reason engine mfg's went to lower viscosity oil. 30W takes probably 120 seconds to get all the way through the oil passages, bearing surfaces and valve train. 0 W 15 can get there in 45 seconds.

I learned synthetic oil's molecule is long and thin. It has a magnet on one end and is super slick on the other end. When it attaches to metal it doesn't come off. Think of it like hair on a cat. You can touch the cat but you can't touch it's skin.

Therefore, just as Ford learned with the 100,000 miles driven on their Lincoln in 1977 with the same Mobil 1, except the quart added with the filter change every 2,000 miles, there was no wear to be found. The engine was protected, period. The hone marks were clearly visible in the pictures of the cylinder walls, 100,000 miles and no wear on the piston rings, no wear on the bearings which still had the coating on them. And no, the seals were not blown out.

Look at Roger Penske. He raced indy cars and had Pennzoil as a sponsor. When Mobil 1 started being used by other teams, he lost constantly to a car that had Mobil 1 in it's engine. He could not use it and had to stick with Pennzoil. He finally quit and told Pennzoil to shove it. I worked at a dealership Penske bought, Roger Penske, Jr.

Pennzoil, I was told, made the change to synthetic because of Roger.

The world is all about change. We don't ride horses, drive cars with wood spoke wheels, mail our bills with the USPS, and still use old technology oils. Yes, conventional oils have come a long way and vastly improved. I think there are some great conventional oils but they don't compare to synthetic and that's my opinion based on my experiences and research.
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 12:10 PM   #50
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
.

Tom you criticize doing things that make us feel good w/o gaining any real good as undesirable
.
No I said just the opposite - it is OK to feel good about the oil you use.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 12:40 PM   #51
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capthead View Post

Look at Roger Penske. He raced indy cars and had Pennzoil as a sponsor. When Mobil 1 started being used by other teams, he lost constantly to a car that had Mobil 1 in it's engine. He could not use it and had to stick with Pennzoil. He finally quit and told Pennzoil to shove it. I worked at a dealership Penske bought, Roger Penske, Jr.

Pennzoil, I was told, made the change to synthetic because of Roger.
I do not dispute any of that but are you comparing Lehmans with Cosworths? Roger also spends approximately $30,000 per car per race on tires.

Look, folks can dump sand in their crankcase if it makes them feel better as far as I care. But paying $36/gallon as opposed to $24/gallon without a corresponding $12/gallon cost benefit is silly in my eyes over the life of an engine. The average 30 year old boat that most members possess has the original engine in it. That original engine has between 3 and 4,000 mostly trouble free hours on it.(Full disclosure, mine has a fresh sub 100 hour engine but it's a gasser)

The argument is often made that synthetic can go twice as long between oil changes and that should net a $12/gallon savings over the life of an engine. Problem is there aren't too many recreational boats that have used it for 30+ years to prove that theory IMO. I've been told the number one lubrication related killer of marine engines has been going too long between oil changes.

Not too many threads in the engine section about folks re-powering their boats due to poor lubrication leads me to conclude it's a false economy. Between my friends opinions whom I trust, and folks like Sunchaser, who has forgotten more about fleet diesel preventative maintenance than I'll ever know... I'll just stick with dino.

But this is all just my opinion as to how I spend my money. Anyone else can use whatever they feel is best for their engine.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 12:59 PM   #52
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Factory Orig:

1967 Buick-Wildcat engine, domed heads, 430 cid, 360 hp, 10.5-1 CR, 121,211K miles as of today! – She put out 155 to 160 per cylinder during recent compression test. Engine base never opened or messed with.

At 75K miles (was single previously): Dual 2” exhaust w/ V-crossover equalizer pipe and Flowmaster Super 44 series mufflers (nice power sound!)

At 106K miles: Head Job, new valves, and timing gear/chain. Lifters and pushrods were in perfect condition... and, are still running perfectly strong today!

Oil Used (2.5 to 3K mile changes): Valvoline 15w-40 Premium Blue Diesel Motor Oil (dino, not syn) w/ 4 oz ZDDP zinc additive for greatly increased barrier protection on all internal parts

Reason I mention: That is same oil and additive I use in my 1985 1 Ton 4WD Chevy Silverado classic truck high performance 350/325 hp engine and the classic twin screw Tollycraft’s 350/255 hp engines.

Works very well for me regarding keeping all my flat tappets, cam lobes, bearings, and cylinder walls in excellent condition...

That’s been my experience for many years... Just Sayen!
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 01:41 PM   #53
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
Factory Orig:

1967 Buick-Wildcat engine, domed heads, 430 cid, 360 hp, 10.5-1 CR, 121,211K miles as of today! – She put out 155 to 160 per cylinder during recent compression test. Engine base never opened or messed with.

At 75K miles (was single previously): Dual 2” exhaust w/ V-crossover equalizer pipe and Flowmaster Super 44 series mufflers (nice power sound!)

At 106K miles: Head Job, new valves, and timing gear/chain. Lifters and pushrods were in perfect condition... and, are still running perfectly strong today!



Oil Used (2.5 to 3K mile changes): Valvoline 15w-40 Premium Blue Diesel Motor Oil (dino, not syn) w/ 4 oz ZDDP zinc additive for greatly increased barrier protection on all internal parts

Reason I mention: That is same oil and additive I use in my 1985 1 Ton 4WD Chevy Silverado classic truck high performance 350/325 hp engine and the classic twin screw Tollycraft’s 350/255 hp engines.

Works very well for me regarding keeping all my flat tappets, cam lobes, bearings, and cylinder walls in excellent condition...

That’s been my experience for many years... Just Sayen!
Valvoline is made from Ash base crude, look at the can, Ashland Texas. That is the best base for lubricating oil. Look at paraffin base oils like Pennzoil. Those oils are not as good, don't want to start a war but ash base is best.

I can see that anyone using Valvoline and adhering to a strict oil change interval will have outstanding results. That and letting the engine warm a bit before driving off.
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 01:49 PM   #54
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaltimoreLurker View Post
I thought thinner oil was required because of the closer tolerances in modern engines due to advanced manufacturing techniques. Could still be fuel economy related I guess. Or more HP. Or the same HP from less fuel, or ... whatever. But what do I know?
I was in the car business for 25 years and spent most of it with GM. They did a lot of research on engine wear and part of the equation was the fact people just don't warm their engines up before driving away. Which is problematic with oil flowing to all wear parts before a load is applied.

My neighbor had an 8 year old Toyota van. She started it up and had it in gear before I counted to two. Every time. Two years ago it started smoking blue smoke so bad it looked like a crop duster. Last year she bought a new Honda and it was 8 when she traded it.

Did her not warming up the engine cause her oil burning? I can't say for certain, but I highly suspect that is the case. I never speak to her.

Living in neighborhoods isn't like living in a marina.
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 01:58 PM   #55
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capthead View Post
Valvoline is made from Ash base crude, look at the can, Ashland Texas. That is the best base for lubricating oil. Look at paraffin base oils like Pennzoil. Those oils are not as good, don't want to start a war but ash base is best.

I can see that anyone using Valvoline and adhering to a strict oil change interval will have outstanding results. That and letting the engine warm a bit before driving off.
Correct Capthead, TY for posting that tidbit of important info.

Something I do before starting my classic gas engines is to crank with "starter only" until oil pressure is obtained. Then I will let them start. That is easy to do with carbs and their air-chokes. I feel (and have been told by engine rebuild experts) that doing this and also letting engine attain good amount of low rpm warm up before applying load is best for all internal parts to gain barriers. This is especially true if engine has been dormant for 24 hrs or longer since a previous full warm-up.
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 02:06 PM   #56
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
Art, that is the best advice ever.

You have nice autos.
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 02:10 PM   #57
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,887
If anyone here can start their engine and get all their lines off and underway before there's oil in all parts of their engine I'd be amazed. Idling out of the marina is better for it than just sitting there letting it warm up. You can argue it but for every person that doesn't think so there's one that does.

Many diesel engines would take forever to warm up past even 100 degrees just sitting in the slip at idle....I never could get my Cat 3208s past 100 until I started moving.

The average diesel pickup engine gets started and driven away at much higher than idle and survives just fine for hundreds of thousands of miles.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 02:26 PM   #58
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capthead View Post
Art, that is the best advice ever.

You have nice autos.
Thanks, Capthead - For both compliments!

I posted that the pre start-up/starter-only oil pressure gig was a good thing a while ago on a TF thread. Some intimated they felt that I was basically nuts... that all I was accomplishing was a faster wear out of the starter! I've quickly/easily/affordably replaced a few starters in my life - instead of replacing engines! Cheep at 1/30th the price and 1/100th the hassle! LOL

Guess they simply did not understand the importance of pre-lube/barrier-placement before starting and warming up engines.
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 03:14 PM   #59
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,420
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
If anyone here can start their engine and get all their lines off and underway before there's oil in all parts of their engine I'd be amazed. Idling out of the marina is better for it than just sitting there letting it warm up.
I couldn't agree more!
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 03:26 PM   #60
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
I have never seen a boater do that. NEVER!!
__________________

Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012