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Old 05-14-2014, 11:55 AM   #461
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Mr R good question.

But perhaps they discovered there was no wear caused by the break-in metal particles and threw out the precaution.

What do other new cars recommend? I didn't think of VW as being any different that others in this regard.
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Old 05-14-2014, 01:57 PM   #462
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Greetings,
Mr, m. Could be an urban legend but I understand at one point in the

(1)far past cars came with a special "break in" oil.

(2) Could it be that VW has done something similar and that's why the 10,000 mile oil change interval?

Just askin'
(1) From what I understand in 50's / 60's some did, some did not. As I recall, some manufacturers recomended changing oil after first 500 miles and again after first 1,500... then 3K mile intervals

(2) Maybe a big ouch - maybe not?? I would keep that oil change to myself, as Eric did by changing it himself.

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Old 05-14-2014, 02:35 PM   #463
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Art you know "Eric" dosn't keep things to himself.

The dealer guys didn't put down my oil change though. One mechanic took me in the garage and showed me an oil changer that pumps up vacuum and sucks out the oil through the dip stick hole. It's just like the one I used to use on my previous boat. Mine is only 5 qts and his was about 8. He was skeptical that it pumped out all the oil so he opened the drain plug and said nothing came out.

Next time I go back to the dealer I'll ask him some other questions.
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Old 05-18-2014, 10:07 AM   #464
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Vacuum extraction is fine in alloy engines. No magnetic drain plug to check and clean.

Synthetic oil can hold more dirt until it is passed through the filter. Then the filter holds the contaminates. The particulates should not be circulating.
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Old 05-18-2014, 10:57 AM   #465
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New engines - new oil.
Old engines....................simple.
Wrong too for new engines, check the owner's manual for warranty requirements.
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Old 05-18-2014, 08:35 PM   #466
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When you look at crude oil Valvoline is an ash based oil. Pennzoil is paraffin based. This is why tearing down old engines with ash based oil results in clean engines with little to no sludge.

This never happens with paraffin based oils. Major sludge always.

Look at Valvoline and see where the company is, Ashland Texas. Wonder how they got the name. Havoline oil is ash based too.
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Old 05-18-2014, 11:34 PM   #467
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Capthead,
I recall the ash/paraffin base thing from the 50s and 60s.

Where do you find that information? Since my motorcycle days I've mostly used Castrol. It dosn't say on the can does it?

Must be very little paraffin base around as I've seen so little sludge.
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Old 05-18-2014, 11:49 PM   #468
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When you look at crude oil Valvoline is an ash based oil. Pennzoil is paraffin based. This is why tearing down old engines with ash based oil results in clean engines with little to no sludge.

This never happens with paraffin based oils. Major sludge always.

Look at Valvoline and see where the company is, Ashland Texas. Wonder how they got the name. Havoline oil is ash based too.
Capthead - To continue your lube input - - >

Point in fact... Last week: Tore down my 1967, 430 cid / 360 hp / 10.5 to 1 compression, domed head Wildcat engine - All Original parts in her block. At her first 125K miles she cracked #3 piston on the sides in ring area; blow by immediately became horrendous and power notably dropped. For years, I've used Valvoline, HD, dino Diesel oil with 4 oz ZDDP added at every 2.5K mile oil change. She is spotless inside. Even the oil pan has next to no film in its bottom.

Plan to soon rebuild complete. A bit of added cam lobe and hotter pistons may be added. May also go Edelbrock intake manifold with Edelbrock Carb (currently orig dual quad Rochester – might just rebuild that carb??).

I am chatting with old time race car mechanics from Sears Point / Infineon Raceway CA. I will make decision whether to keep using same oil as before or begin using synthetic oil.
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:58 AM   #469
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... with today's highest octane of 91..
Art, note the economical quote, and the less welcome slight drift(the thread not the Wildcat)
Is that right, octane max is 91?? 91 is base level here,alongside 95 and 98. Plenty of European cars here demand 95, some need 98. Just bought my first diesel engined car.
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Old 05-19-2014, 06:10 AM   #470
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Art, note the economical quote, and the less welcome slight drift(the thread not the Wildcat)
Is that right, octane max is 91?? 91 is base level here,alongside 95 and 98. Plenty of European cars here demand 95, some need 98. Just bought my first diesel engined car.
Bruce, I don't think Art is right about 91 octane being their highest, but as an asideÖwhat vehicle did you go for - always interested in cars..?
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Old 05-19-2014, 07:06 AM   #471
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Bruce, I don't think Art is right about 91 octane being their highest, but as an aside…what vehicle did you go for - always interested in cars..?
Bruce - Far as I know, and far as any of my racing buddies have mentioned when we chat, 91 octane is currently top level on Pacific coast of U.S. Actually, I believe that is the highest octane available at gas stations across the country. There are octane boosters that can be added to gas tanks - but - their expense and "safe" on vehicle storage for an additive during long trips can become prohibitive. - Art
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:08 AM   #472
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Yup ... 91 octane.

Art,
What's ZDDP?

RT,
Yes I remember the 500 mi break-in oil. It was common. I suppose if the engine was all plastic there would'nt be the excess of metal particles floating around during break-in. But I'm sure the pistons and cylinders are metal so I would think the heavy particles of metal would be there. Why does it not seem to be a problem anymore? All I can think of is that somebody discovered it was an old wife's tale and the break-in metal dosn't cause extra wear. Or that the metal particles were only in the minds of men and not in engines. ?????

Bruce what's "your first diesel car"?
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Old 05-19-2014, 10:21 AM   #473
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Eric, What I know is all Pennsylvania crude is paraffin based crude and Pennzoil and Castrol go to great lengths to remove as much paraffin as they can without harming the lube qualities. They have gotten much better than back in the 60's.
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Old 05-19-2014, 10:48 AM   #474
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Art, note the economical quote, and the less welcome slight drift(the thread not the Wildcat)
Is that right, octane max is 91?? 91 is base level here,alongside 95 and 98. Plenty of European cars here demand 95, some need 98. Just bought my first diesel engined car.
In the US and Canada gas pump octane ratings are the average of RON (Research Octane Number) and AKI (Anti Knock Index). As I recall - in Europe, NZ and Australia - to deal with wrong side drivers they use RON only which is about 6 to 8 points higher.

And CapthHead, don't believe all that decades old advertising stuff about ash and paraffin for our every day oils. The bottom line is provided the oils are graded and properly rated and marked for CN, SJ4 ASI, CSI , MFD or IRS that matches the engines real world requirements the engine will do quite nicely.

Interestingly, many internet babble synthetics are not graded so resort to market hype. Grading requires big bucks for testing and certification. Hence the engine manufacturers need for warranty able syns like Mobil 1 vs say Royal Burble.
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Old 05-19-2014, 10:54 AM   #475
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What I know is true though. There are two distinct bases of crude oil and some crude is a combination of the two. It gets to the capabilities of the refinery which the penn companies have mastered.
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:18 AM   #476
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What I know is true though. There are two distinct bases of crude oil and some crude is a combination of the two. It gets to the capabilities of the refinery which the penn companies have mastered.
Or one could say there are dozens if not hundreds of types of crudes. For industrial marketing to refiners it gets sorted out by using designations like "sweet light crude" or "Brent" or "Heavy." Or tar sands crude? It gets complicated real quick, hence the need for front end crude grading so the sellers and refiners know selling and buying prices for raw products.

A healthy read of the Oil and Gas Journal will add a bit of brevity to the labeling maze we mere mortals perusing the Walmart stocks fall prey to.
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:51 AM   #477
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Yup ... 91 octane.

Art,
What's ZDDP?

RT,
Yes I remember the 500 mi break-in oil. It was common. I suppose if the engine was all plastic there would'nt be the excess of metal particles floating around during break-in. But I'm sure the pistons and cylinders are metal so I would think the heavy particles of metal would be there. Why does it not seem to be a problem anymore? All I can think of is that somebody discovered it was an old wife's tale and the break-in metal dosn't cause extra wear. Or that the metal particles were only in the minds of men and not in engines. ?????

Bruce what's "your first diesel car"?
Hey Eric - ZDDP is a brand additive of zinc http://zddplus.com/.

Catalytic convertersí internals do not do well with zinc or any exhaust that may contain same; it clogs their finely arranged/coated sectors and depletes their noxious gas removal qualities... it too soon ruins them. ZDDP (zinc in general) is not recommended for any engines with cat-converters.

Classic gas engines (approximately pre 1994) had solid lifters, i.e. ďflat tappetsĒ. Zinc in oil had been used for decades as an extra protective barrier in the lube-film that must exist between cam lobes and solid lifter bottoms. With the advent of roller bearing lifter bottoms the zinc in oil became less needed and due to its cat-converter destruction soon became reduced amounts in gasoline engine oils. Currently I believe zinc is virtually nonexistent in gasoline engine oils... but... it still is in fair concentrations in HD Valvoline high detergent, dino diesel oil (and, maybe in other diesel oils too). That is why I use Valvoline dino diesel oil with a 4 oz bottle ZDDP at each oil change in my several flat tappet classic engines. For safety I also throw in another 4 oz ZDDP in middle mileage between each oil change.

Having just torn apart my 47 year old high performance 125K mile - 1967, 430 cid, 360 hp, 10.5 to 1 compression Buick Wildcat engine I can attest to the amazing (virtually perfect) cleanliness throughout engine as well as the really great condition of bearings, all flat lifters' bottoms, and its camís lobes. If it had not been that #3 cylinder cracked its piston in 3 locations around the ring areas that motor would probably have run well for many more miles. Blow by suddenly became horrendous and there was notable power reduction as well as a miss in engine... that one cylinder had dropped from 165 to 175 pounds (in all other cylinders) during recent wet/dry compression test to 40/45 pounds.

Now that I have her apart I'm going full-out in rebuild and plan to jack up her HP into the low 400's via increased cam lobes, special pistons, and maybe even Edelbrock intake and carb?? We shall see how this all goes... I'm having a highly reputed machine shop race car motor expert in classic engines do the actual block rebuild. He's an old boy and really knows his stuff regarding classic high performance gasoline engines.

What Iím not sure yet is exactly what oil-lube concoction to use during break-in and what to continually use as general oil after her break in. Maybe Synthetic oil (I donít know if syn oils should also have ZDDP added for flat tappets)??? Or, maybe stay with Valvoline dino Diesel oil and 4 oz ZDDP??? Iíll rely heavily on my rebuild mechanicís suggestions, as well as discuss lube qualities with other high performance classic engine owners/rebuilders.

Happy Classic Gas-Engine Daze! - Art
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:55 AM   #478
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I agree with what you said. My knowledge comes from my relatives whom one was the head chemist for Phillips Petroleum the others worked for Halliburton as chemical engineers.
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:57 AM   #479
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I wouldn't advise using synthetic oil for break in.
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:26 PM   #480
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I wouldn't advise using synthetic oil for break in.
I'm not particularly planning to - but, why do you advise not too... experience??
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