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Old 04-23-2013, 08:42 AM   #441
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There is also two other factors coming into it regarding thermostat operations. One is ( Art take note), they are not, repeat not, precision instruments...
and two, you are forgetting they operate along the principle called a hysteresis loop. I have already posted what that is, so look up Google if you want, but the essence of it is, they don't open and close at precisely the same temperature, otherwise they would be snapping open and shut endlessly and inefficiently, as this degree of precision is not required - rather like an autopilot does not try to correct every minor heading change - the engines are really not that fussy, as long as they are within a range, that's hot enough, but not too hot.
I can vouch for the fact that my gauge runs at about 83 deg C, in winter, and nearer 90C (88-89 actually) in summer, because we have quite a difference in water temp. That will all else being the same, in terms of rpm, distance, time of day etc. what more can one say...?
Boating is cool!! (no pun intended on thermostats - LOL)

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Old 04-23-2013, 09:31 AM   #442
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When I was a kid we used to test thermostats by placing them in a pan of water on the stove and heating it up with a candy thermometer in the water. They are crude heat controlled valves and start opening long before the temp and are fully open below that temp. That to me shows there are other factors that come into play like the radiator, air flow across it and other things.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:12 AM   #443
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Kick'in this can down the road and theorizing why changing to synthetic oil changes coolant temperature is nonsense. Get a grip and admit it's just plain nonsense. Just because something happens after doing something else dosn't mean they are connected.

If you want to keep talk'in and not sound like a bunch of drunks in a tavern do the scientific experiments necessary to show there is a cause and effect relationship that's real.

You've got the cart before the horse but actually the cart has nothing to do w the horse unless you can prove that it does with standardized scientific methods.

So Cap's boat is laid up and if no one else is willing to do the experiment nobody will ever know if coolant temperature has anything to do w what kind of lube oil is being used.

For some time now this conversation has been mostly about what some of you (most perhaps) WANT to believe. That is the basis for a lot of beliefs on this planet. Call out something that can't be easily proven and dozens to billions of people will believe it because they WANT to. And over LONG periods of time. Relative to TF this thread is a long time.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:26 AM   #444
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Has the accuracy of your temperature probe and gauge been verified?
Yes!
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:35 AM   #445
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When angels dance on the head of a pin do they tap dance or perform sort of an Irish stepdancing thing?

Do they sweat? Do they make much noise, or is it a quiet shuffle like a ballet?
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:37 PM   #446
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When angels dance on the head of a pin do they tap dance or perform sort of an Irish stepdancing thing?

Do they sweat? Do they make much noise, or is it a quiet shuffle like a ballet?

They do the Irish Riverdance thing because there's no room to swing your arms around like you do when tapdancing.

They make no noise at all because, since they're angels, they can hear whatever tune they want in their souls. No need for old fashioned and earthbound soundwaves.
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Old 05-13-2014, 03:44 PM   #447
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Wow, it has taken forever to read through this entire post. A lot of spirited debate here and strong op inion. Just my two cents worth synthetic by all evidence appears superior to Dino but with added cost. My quandary is the additional cost vs the benefit as has been spoken to many times in this tread. I live on a lake and for the past 15 years have kept from 5 to 7 boats at all times, I currently have 7 registered boats from a carry able pond boat 6HP,jet ski, custom built tunnel hull jet boat with ½ inch of high density molecular plastic armor on the entire bottom, RIB ETC.to my 490. I also have four Yamaha 4 strokes and two 2 strokes ( extra outboards). Dealing with batteries, impellers, fuel and chaining out lube is a large part of my life. With that said I use a lot of synthetics to extend my service time and allow me to enjoy my fishing and pleasure boating. I have only had one bad experience with synthetics, in 96 I purchased a used 1991 190 master craft with a 351 Ford engine that had 200 hours. When I got it home I changed all fluid and the impeller. I replaced the oil with Mobil 1. At the end of the next weekend I noticed oil in the bilge. The front main seal was the split type and was leaking. I change back to Dino and the leak stopped.
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Old 05-13-2014, 03:51 PM   #448
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I would use synthetics if I put a lot of hours on my engines each year and changed oil based on hours. I do not put a lot of hours on my engines. Nonetheless I believe that all oil needs to be changed each year because of possible acid build up. Since I change oil once a year I use cheaper regular oil. All this ties together logically for me.
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Old 05-13-2014, 04:11 PM   #449
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There have been several posts that point to my problem as being caused (or controlled ) by the thermostat. I certainly can't find fault with that and is the reason I've changed thermostats twice while pursuing my (perceived) problem. As stated earlier, my engine may be one whos normal operating temp is 192 degrees. But why, then, do other 330B engines run cooler?

Again, changing to a synthetic may help, but if it doesn't, I'm still within the specs as published by Cummins. We shall see.

Yo, Walt - I know you asked me to stop asking... and I did so - for over a year... until now!! YW - Art

So, that I've obliged your wish for a long period; can you tell us if you tried out the Dino to Syn oil change you had mused, and most importantly, if you switched did the Syn oil usage result in dropping engine temps... like was bantered back and forth so often over a year ago in this thread?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Hope you are doing well, I've not noticed your posts for some time. Wishing you a really good 2014 summer boating season!

Happy Boat Daze! – Art
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:15 PM   #450
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I would use synthetics if I put a lot of hours on my engines each year and changed oil based on hours. I do not put a lot of hours on my engines. Nonetheless I believe that all oil needs to be changed each year because of possible acid build up. Since I change oil once a year I use cheaper regular oil. All this ties together logically for me.
The biggest advantage of synthetic oil besides it almost eliminates engine wear is that it doesn't break down so sludge, acid formation, is almost non exsistant. Go to an engine rebuilder and ask them what an engine looks like when tore down for a rebuild after maybe a half million miles. The last one I saw was in my ex rental car that I bought with 15k on it and it stopped at just under 200k. The engine looked like new but the crank shaft had been flawed from the factory and it finally broke.

If you change often the advantage is minimal your right but for me it is cheap insurance. Some of the so called syn oils I have noticed are not syn but blends and definatly a waste of money
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Old 05-13-2014, 08:23 PM   #451
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For Sits & Giggles, this is regarding Dino-vs-Syn oil: True life 47 yr high performance gasoline auto engine experience, i.e Dino not Syn.

Today: Tore down my 125K mi, 1967, 430 cid / 360 hp / 10.5 - 1 compression, factory original Buick Wildcat engine. Valves and timing renewed at 100K mi, block never touched. Oil pan never removed.

Missing and bad blow by began couple hundred miles ago, low key internal sounds too. Performed wet/dry compression test, all cylinders but one reading 160 to 175 lbs in either test. # 3 cylinder ran 40 to 45 lbs wet or dry. At first we felt (I hoped) maybe it was valve or even a lifter problem. So... we switched lifters, but same reading. Then we pulled head; wet test under pressure was A-OK. Then we pulled # 3 piston - And Oh Crap!!

# 3 piston was cracked in several upward area locations in proximity to rings; rings messed up too... why???... I and my mechanics don't know. Maybe factory material defect, maybe just 47 yrs age wherein metal fatigued? Not from pre ignition - we coild tell by piston tops. I figure if one went that way, even though cylinder wall is fine condition (crosshatches still visible under strong light) and bearings worn but not too bad... it's time for full rebuild.

Now - Here's what all this engine's internals looked like with 47 years of DINO OIL – Virtually STOTLESS! Even in lowest part of oil pan barely a smidge of sludge. I use Valvoline High Detergent Heavy Duty Dino Diesel Oil with 4 oz ZDDP additive at oil change and another 4 oz at 1/2 way through change. I replace oil at between 2.5K and 3K miles in all my classic-aged solid lifter engines. I bought this Cat 1998, 71,321 miles. PO's were in 70’s when they bought her new. Probably had regular oil changes with regular dino oil. She’d sat with short drives few times per year by son of remaining mom owner. She passed at 101 yrs.

I'm contemplating using synthetic oil after rebuild and will talk with the race car mechanic who rebuilds her. If engine’s interior was this clean – Dino Oil – vs – Syn Oil is still up in the air to my way of thinking.

OK – Synthetic Oil Pros - - > Convince Me, Why Syn over Dino??

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Old 05-13-2014, 08:29 PM   #452
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New engines - new oil.
Old engines....................simple.
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Old 05-13-2014, 08:48 PM   #453
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For Sits & Gigles, this is regarding Dino-vs-Syn oil: True life 47 yr high performance gasoline auto engine experience regarding - Dino not Syn.

Today: Tore down my 125K mi, 1967, 430 cid / 360 hp / 10.5 - 1 compression, factory original Buick Wildcat engine. Valves and timing renewed at 100K mi, block never touched. Oil pan never removed.


I'm contemplating using synthetic oil after rebuild and will talk with the race car mechanic who rebuilds her. If engine’s interior was this clean – Dino Oil – vs – Syn Oil is still up in the air to my way of thinking.

OK – Synthetic Oil Preos - - > Convince Me, Why Syn over Dino??

Happy Oil Change Daze! - Art
kinda like my story above with the defective crank shaft. Don't think either incident had anything to do with the oil.

your engine was well maintained so no deposits were formed. Oils main job is keeping dirt in suspension. when the oil becomes saturated the crude percipitates out. Syn holds dirt better than dino oils. All these facts are well documented and if the facts don't convince you look at some of the big trucking companies maintenance cost records. Many of them have gone syn.
The only down side is the increased cost. For engines your question is valid but for diferentials and transmissions syn is a no brainer. All performance cars have the stuff from the factory and all US auto makers are using it. They wouldn't be using it if it didn't save them money
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Old 05-13-2014, 09:33 PM   #454
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kinda like my story above with the defective crank shaft. Don't think either incident had anything to do with the oil.

your engine was well maintained so no deposits were formed. Oils main job is keeping dirt in suspension. when the oil becomes saturated the crude percipitates out. Syn holds dirt better than dino oils. All these facts are well documented and if the facts don't convince you look at some of the big trucking companies maintenance cost records. Many of them have gone syn.
The only down side is the increased cost. For engines your question is valid but for diferentials and transmissions syn is a no brainer. All performance cars have the stuff from the factory and all US auto makers are using it. They wouldn't be using it if it didn't save them money
Britt, all good points, thanks!

So if as you say "Syn holds dirt better than Dino oils." Is that to mean that Syn keeps the dirt "wrapped-up /suspended in its lubricating factors" better than Dino. If with both oils there is the same amount of dirt that enters into engine... it seems that if the dirt were released from the oil (whatever type it is) to drop to pan bottom or be removed via the filter - well - that would best keep the oil virgin to better create lubricating barriors. There is much about engine oils I do not understand!

I’m currently sitting squarely on the fence as to using Dino or Syn; when my Buick Wildcat High Performance engine is undergoing its break-in, as well as thereafter... The locally renowned engine rebuilder will be the one that chooses. Bet he has all kinds of special-lube as well as caustic break-in stuff he’ll want me to use! I will post results.

Always seeking to learn more re Dino-vs-Syn oils.

Cheers! Art
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Old 05-13-2014, 10:15 PM   #455
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There's only two good reasons to use synthetic oil and that's if your engine will have parts dependent on the lube oil that are so hot those parts will break down the Dino oil causing metal to metal contact where not intended. And 2nd if your manual specifies synthetic oil.

That's why new cars require syn oil and why many trucking companies use it. In a word .. turbocharger. Or heat.

If you have a water cooled engine w/o a turbo you don't need syn oil. And there is no benefit worth mentioning.

And the first job for lube oil is not to hold dirt in suspension but to keep metal parts from coming in contact w each other.

The question of should I use syn oil or Dino oil is much like the question of multi-vis or straight wt oil. If you need it you need it. And if you don't you don't. Over 99% of the time your manual will tell you if you need or don't need syn or multi-vis oil.

As to dirt? Why would syn carry or be able to hold in a harmless state more dirt than Dino oil? Especially when Dino is usually changed more often.

My philosophy is to run straight 30W oil in my boat and change it often .. Two or three times a year. I run multi-weight (vis) dino or syn in my vehicles as per the manual.

Another comparison that fits here is high octane gasoline for a car. Unless there's pre-ignition, pinging or detonation there's no advantage to running anything but 87 octane gasoline regular gas. They call higher octane fuel "premium" probably so you will think it's better .. and buy it. It's not better ... unless you need it and your manual will tell you if you do.

Straight wt dino oil is all you need in an old NA diesel. Probably any new NA as well. No advantage for running anything else that is worth talking about. Unless your manual says so.

And there is no old oil for old engines or old style oil for old style engines. Or new type oil for newer engines unless the engine actually needs it and then the manual will say so. The requirements of the engine determine what oil needs to be used.
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Old 05-13-2014, 10:54 PM   #456
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Thanks, Eric! In addition to good info/suggestions/presumptions (mine included) on dino-vs-syn oil from TF members... I look forward to an oil-chat with my gasoline performance engine's rebuilder.

BTW: Eric, notice how I recently think twice before using others' quotes in my posts? Not saying I'll always obey!
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Old 05-14-2014, 07:20 AM   #457
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>Another comparison that fits here is high octane gasoline for a car. Unless there's pre-ignition, pinging or detonation there's no advantage to running anything but 87 octane gasoline regular gas.<

This is fine if your car is an antique , but today most gas cars have ping detection , that hears pre-ignition or detonation and adjusts the timing , fuel injection and turbo boost as required.The operator will never Hear the engine suffering .

Running low test in a new hi test required car will only reduce power and increase fuel consumption , but not ruin the engine.

However using hi test in a modern car not built for it will do almost nothing except cost more.
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:02 AM   #458
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>Another comparison that fits here is high octane gasoline for a car. Unless there's pre-ignition, pinging or detonation there's no advantage to running anything but 87 octane gasoline regular gas.<

This is fine if your car is an antique , but today most gas cars have ping detection , that hears pre-ignition or detonation and adjusts the timing , fuel injection and turbo boost as required.The operator will never Hear the engine suffering .

Running low test in a new hi test required car will only reduce power and increase fuel consumption , but not ruin the engine.

However using hi test in a modern car not built for it will do almost nothing except cost more.
Race car mechanic rebuilding my 1967 10.5 to 1 compression Wildcat engine tells me that with today's highest octane of 91 that 9.5 to 1 is in general the highest compression ratio to run for security that pings will not occur in old classic high-performance engines. He also states that by lowering the thermostat temp from factory recommended 180 degree to 160 and altering the dwell / timing slightly from factory specs that even with pistons that provide 10.5 to 1 compression the dreaded ping can be avoided. With 125K miles on my 430 cid, 360 hp Buick engine there appears to never have been any pinging... We determined that by looking at top of original pistons. For simplicity in rebuild to original specs I will probably remain with original piston design. I can easily get the originals, and, pistons that lower compression to 9.5 to 1 will be a task to locate.

All in all as this classic-performance engine rebuild progresses I will keep close eye on all increments! I might even have my mechanic jump up this performance engine’s HP to 400 +/-. We shall see; the block gets delivered to his shop tomorrow.
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Old 05-14-2014, 10:38 AM   #459
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FF wrote;

"This is fine if your car is an antique , but today most gas cars have ping detection , that hears pre-ignition or detonation and adjusts the timing , fuel injection and turbo boost as required.The operator will never Hear the engine suffering ."

HaHa you got me there. I forgot about that. But my point still stands if you apply it to "antiques". If you use the manual you don't even need to know if you've got an antique or not. FF you've always said "read da book". Like most VWs w turbo's whereas VW "recommends" the use of "premium" fuel. Perhaps the higher octane isn't really needed unless your'e on a grade pulling a trailer in the desert in the summer. But for those that do VW has covered their behinds w the recommendation. Ant little old ladies can say "My oh my I don't need that".

But my new VW does require synthetic oil and I just put in 6 quarts. After I managed to FIND the oil filter and deal w the star (Torx) socket drain plug. I used a vice grip. I changed the oil even though VW dosn't recommend it until the car has 10,000 miles on it. Just could'nt stand it at 5,400 miles.

Now is someone going to come back at me and say the synthetic oil will hold 10 times as much dirt ???

What consideration has been made for the metal particles in the oil from break-in .... I haven't heard but I'm sure consideration has been made. Perhaps only 95% sure as I did change my oil at half the recommended millage. Hmmmm

What ever happened to Capthead? He was always in the thick of it re synthetic oil. Must have become a dino convert.
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Old 05-14-2014, 10:43 AM   #460
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Greetings,
Mr, m. Could be an urban legend but I understand at one point in the far past cars came with a special "break in" oil. Could it be that VW has done something similar and that's why the 10,000 mile oil change interval? Just askin'
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